48: An HSP’s Infertility Journey
With Liz Gray, LCSW + RPT
Are you struggling with infertility? In this episode, I talk with Liz Gray, LCSW, RPT about her IVF journey through an HSP lens and:
• The physical, emotional, and mental impact of infertility treatment
• Why you should ask questions and trust your instincts when interviewing providers
• Transitioning into parenthood and navigating postpartum as a highly sensitive person
Liz is a Highly Sensitive Person, certified EMDR therapist and clinical supervisor, wife, human & goldendoodle momma, organizer, forever learner, quiet leader, social introvert, think-outside-the-box creator, trauma survivor, and infertility warrior. She is the proud co-founder of the Trauma-Informed Maternal Health Directory, which connects women to safe, highly qualified trauma-informed providers while they navigate infertility, pregnancy, and new parenthood. Liz lives outside of Chicago, IL with her husband, mini goldendoodle, and 8-month old son.
Keep in touch with Liz:
• Website: https://www.maternaltraumasupport.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/maternaltraumasupport
Resources Mentioned:
• The Trauma-Informed Maternal Health Network: https://www.maternaltraumasupport.com/provider.
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Liz Gray: 0:00
Throughout the infertility journey, my pregnancy, during the birth, postpartum, I've come across providers who have done so much harm, and it's not okay. I want to empower other women that it's okay to say no, it's okay to fire a provider for any reason. It's not just okay, but it's essential to have a team of people that you feel safe and comfortable with, because infertility and pregnancy are the most vulnerable times that a person might ever go through in their life.
April Snow: 0:40
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Liz Gray about her journey of infertility, the emotional and physical impact of doing IVF as a sensitive person, and her eventual transition into parenthood. Liz is a highly sensitive person, certified EMDR, therapist and clinical supervisor, organizer, creator, trauma survivor and infertility warrior. She is the proud co-founder of the Trauma-Informed Maternal Health Directory, which connects women to safe, highly qualified trauma-informed providers while they navigate infertility, pregnancy and new parenthood.
April Snow: 1:40
Liz lives outside of Chicago, illinois, with her husband, golden Doodle, and eighth-month month old son. For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. Welcome Liz. I'm so happy to have you here on the podcast today.
Liz Gray: 2:36
I am so excited to be here, knowing you as a friend, as a colleague yes.
April Snow: 2:41
I know we go way back and we've done other projects together, colleague. Yes, I know we go way back and we've done other projects together, and it's sweet to be coming together again in this space and hearing more of your personal story. So before we get started, though, I always like to ask people what your HSP discovery story is, how and when you realize that you're a highly sensitive person.
Liz Gray: 2:59
I wish I had a really exciting story to share with you, or even knew the exact moment that I found out that I was HSP. But I don't remember exactly. It was probably seven or eight years ago, and my guess is that I just stumbled across something, and it might've been your Facebook group that you have for highly sensitive therapists. It might've been an article or a blog or a podcast. Again, I don't remember the exact context, but what I do remember is learning that there was a name for what I'd experienced my whole life, and so that aha moment of discovery and feeling like, wow, this is actually. I want this to be a piece of my identity because it fits, and that I kind of just took off and since then that is. You know, that's where I found my best friends and connected with you.
April Snow: 3:53
Oh, I love that. I want this to be a piece of my identity. That is so empowering. It feels so good to hear it and there is something about that right having the context. Oh, this is why I am the way I am, and oftentimes the actual moment kind of fades in the distance, but just that feeling of okay, I know myself is really, really powerful and, yeah, it's so much community comes out. I can't I just can't believe how many people I've connected with since realizing that I'm an HSP, you being one of them. It's incredible, from all over the place.
Liz Gray: 4:29
Yeah, and I think for HSPs we need deep connection. And looking back, realizing that most of the people in my life pre-HSP discovery are not sensitive, and I felt like really didn't understand me.
April Snow: 4:44
Yeah, it's true. You start to realize, oh, I need more people like myself in my life and I think there's more space to be fully sensitive and just let those parts of you out and not be the caregiver all the time, or the one who puts themselves aside or the empathetic one, however you want to hold it. So, yeah, a lot of things shift after that aha moment.
Liz Gray: 5:07
Yes, personally and professionally, because I started working with primarily highly sensitive women in their mid-twenties, thirties as a therapist, and so that has been really amazing too, even though my clients don't know a ton about really my personal history or even the ways in which I'm highly sensitive. But a lot of them say, Liz, just knowing that you're an HSP, that's enough. That's enough. That feels really good.
April Snow: 5:37
Doesn't it? It's like just being able to be with. There's something different about being with an HSP in friendship, community and relationship of any kind. It's like I can just relax, I can be myself and I get it Exactly.
Liz Gray: 5:50
And it shows a different. Yeah, it shows a differently for all of us, but it's like this common language.
April Snow: 5:55
Exactly you can settle into. Well, speaking of your work, I know you have since kind of switched your work based on your personal experience with infertility, with IVF. So I'm curious, how has being an HSP impacted that experience as much as you can tell?
Liz Gray: 6:12
I would say it's impacted that in every single way. We probably don't even have enough time for me to go into all of it.
Liz Gray: 6:20
But when I was preparing to talk with you today I was just I was really reflecting on my experience as an HSP. So I actually went through the HSP test on Dr Lane's website again just to re-acclimate myself with some of the traits and where I fit in and then thinking about my infertility journey and then the intersection between the two and one of the things so I guess I can kind of talk about in terms of like physical, mental and emotional impacts that it had. So I'll just go into each of those. In terms of the physical impact that IVF had on me is, first of all I just want to name that anyone going through infertility is well, first of all a warrior, but it's going to look different for every person, but there are definitely some commonalities. So I would say the physical impact is essentially just for a little bit of background context, for a menstruating woman, generally her ovaries are the size of thumbs, so one egg is released each month during ovulation and the cycle repeats During IVF.
Liz Gray: 7:33
One of the phases is ovarian stimulation. You might hear people say like I'm doing stims that's kind of the abbreviation that you know. It's easier to say that and essentially we are doing injections to ourselves. I didn't know that ahead of time, so it's just doing injections and also taking medication multiple ways. I had to take medication five different ways, which I didn't know about that either.
April Snow: 8:00
Can we pause there for a second? Can you tell me what the five ways are? If you're comfortable, yeah of course.
Liz Gray: 8:06
So there's the injections, and those are. You know you often mix the medications yourself and then either do the injections yourself or, if you have a partner to do that. I also know some people who they and their partner were not able to do it, so they would either go to their clinic, but that's a couple of times a day, every day, for it could be up to, you know, two weeks when you're in this phase, or I do know of some places that actually like there's a nurse who you can hire and have them come to your house and do it.
April Snow: 8:40
But so there's the injections, there's oral pills, there is like, for example, I had to put estrogen patches on my stomach at times, and then there are like vaginal suppositories wow, that's a lot of just thinking about the amount of overwhelm that would cause the not just the tracking of what to do, but also the physical sensations of applying medication in so many different ways. It's a lot on a sensitive body anybody but sensitive body.
Liz Gray: 9:13
Yes, it is, and you know, for me, I think for my sensitivity, like my muscles tend to twitch, and so they were twitching even more during stims, I get itchy. Sometimes I was even more itchy. I feel bloated. Sometimes I felt even more bloated, which, to go back to what I was saying earlier, typically, you know, a woman's ovaries are the size of thumbs. By the end of stims, when you're ready for the egg retrieval, ovaries are the size of tennis balls.
April Snow: 9:39
Wow, that's a big change.
Liz Gray: 9:43
Huge. So you are so bloated and then there's a fear of, like I was doing pole dancing well before I started and, and you know, I had to stop because there's this fear that like something could get twisted or torn internally. So there really is a lot of wear and tear that happens on the body and then there's nausea and GI issues and just so much and bruising from the injections and it's a lot.
April Snow: 10:18
Yeah, everything is disrupted and you kind of have to halt also how you're taking care of yourself, even Exactly.
Liz Gray: 10:24
Yeah, and it really just thinking about the schedule like sometimes I had to take oral pills three times a day and do injections two to three times a day and they're different. So you have to be so organized and scheduled and even me, who is very organized, it's still really overwhelming. And then there's the fear of oh my gosh, if I mess up, if I forget something, if I accidentally take it twice, or what if I leave the medication out. I mean, these medications are $25,000.
April Snow: 10:59
Right. The stakes are so high on every level financially, logistically I mean, this is your shot to do this. Yeah, exactly.
Liz Gray: 11:08
So that I would say is kind of an overview of the physical impacts. You know, mentally, I think, as an HSP and also someone who is an overthinker and anxious, I was always thinking three, five, 10 steps ahead.
April Snow: 11:26
Sure, you have to.
Liz Gray: 11:27
Yeah, and planning for? I mean, I was I was about to say planning for the best and worst case scenario. I don't even think I was able to plan for the best case scenario. I think I couldn't allow myself to even think about being pregnant, having a baby, because I was so tunnel vision. I had to just get through this phase.
April Snow: 11:48
You're just focusing that on applying the medications going through the IVF process, but not able to even let yourself think what's next. Exactly, it makes sense, yeah, yeah.
Liz Gray: 11:58
And what was really interesting is typically in my relationship. My husband is. Much more of the interesting is typically in my relationship my husband is much more of the I don't want to say pessimist, I'll say realist where he can kind of jump to a conclusion of like oh, we're doomed you know, but he tends to be, and I'm much more patient and optimistic and like, okay, hold on, like let's take a step back, let's pause.
Liz Gray: 12:32
And our roles kind of switched when we were going for IVF and that was really surprising to both of us. So, for example, I ended up doing three retrievals back to back to back, and which was a lot of my body too, I mean. Some people take breaks, take long breaks in between, but I kind of was like well, we're on this train, let's just keep going. Yep. And after my first egg retrieval I believe I got 22 eggs, were, you know, taken- I'm actually going to look up my stats.
Liz Gray: 13:01
So let's see the first retrieval. Oh, actually, 20 eggs were retrieved, which you find out the day of. So I woke up, I was put under, woke up and they say, hey, you got 20 eggs. So I'm thinking, oh my gosh, that's incredible. That's a good number. Yeah, yeah. Okay, the thing is well, it's also like kind of the Goldilocks, because too many.
Liz Gray: 13:21
I mean some people can have 30, 60 eggs retrieved, and that is, but oftentimes those eggs aren't mature, so actually, that's you know they can hyper stimulate or overstimulate, sorry, but then there's some people that don't get enough and maybe only get one, two or three eggs you know that are retrieved. So it's like it's just this numbers game. So like 20 felt like a really good number, right. And then the next day they called me and said of those 20, 12 of those are mature eggs and nine were fertilized.
April Snow: 13:57
Okay, so it quickly drops down. You're less than half now of what you thought you had.
Liz Gray: 14:02
Exactly. And then you have to wait a couple of days until they call it's blastocysts, that they say like, hey, this is how many made it to blast. Out of the 20 eggs, only two of my embryos, so that's after the egg and the sperm have been fertilized. Of those nine, two of them made it to blast Wow. And then we got ours tested each time, which is Genetic testing. Genetic testing, and you have to send the embryos out and it can take a couple of weeks and it's not covered by insurance.
Liz Gray: 14:39
Right, a lot of this is out of pocket, a lot of it, and I'll get into the financial piece later, and it's a couple, the financial piece later, sure, and it's a couple thousand dollars each time. Wow, and so of those two, one of them was a healthy embryo and one was unhealthy.
April Snow: 14:55
Wow, so you go from 20 to. What an emotional roller coaster.
Liz Gray: 14:59
Such an emotional roller coaster, and I remember the exact moment that we got that call. I was in my bedroom and I was just devastated because here I am, knowing that I was probably going to do multiple retrievals, because my insurance allowed us to bank embryos, which means you can basically do multiple rounds of retrievals and kind of store your embryos, whereas other plans sometimes, or a doctor or patient might decide together. We'll do a retrieval and then we'll do the transfer, the embryo transfer.
April Snow: 15:32
So either you transfer or you bank it. Pretty much, yeah.
Liz Gray: 15:35
And then there's fresh transfers and frozen transfers. I mean, there's so many different variations. It's a lot.
April Snow: 15:42
I mean there's thinking about overthinking. There's so many ways that you could just get frozen in this process.
Liz Gray: 15:49
Totally, and it is so it's like literally learning a new language. It is so complicated and complex. So we knew early on we were going to do a couple retrievals. Our insurance allowed four a year and so I kind of went in saying I'm going to do four. That's kind of where my mind was, and I just remember getting the phone call that only one of them was healthy and being absolutely devastated and, of course, thinking like, oh my gosh, like what if we only get one or zero the next time?
April Snow: 16:26
Right, and this is a trend.
Liz Gray: 16:28
Exactly yeah, and my husband and I was just so amazed by him. He said Liz, this is so good. It means that this is working. I have faith in this process.
April Snow: 16:40
Wow, oh, what a bright light to come in and help you see that Like, oh, this is actually. There's still hope. Yes, because we have one healthy embryo.
Liz Gray: 16:50
Exactly, yeah, and I was like we only have one. And he's like, but we have one, we have one yes. And you know, it was just. It was really helpful for me to kind of step out of the the pity and sadness and to be able to say, wow, okay, because we had been given a 1% chance to conceive, naturally. So really, if you think about it, it's pretty incredible that we had this true embryo.
Liz Gray: 17:19
Yeah, it's a miracle, yeah, and I'll just really quickly. So the second retrieval I had 25 eggs that were retrieved and then I don't have to go through all the numbers, but we ended up with six embryos that got tested and were viable. Four of them were viable and then one wasn't and one was when we had to get retested. Anyway, that ended up being an unhealthy one. So four out of six of those ended up being healthy. Now let me also say that what really complicated this is that, out of those five now embryos that we had that were healthy, all five were girls. No way, and I had my heart set on a boy.
April Snow: 18:02
Okay, okay. So there's still. There's so many layers and potential for disappointment along the way. Exactly, wow, okay.
Liz Gray: 18:12
And we had to decide are we going to do a third retrieval before we knew what the results of the second retrieval were Right Also, so it was just. It's such a just, this game of waiting and making decisions, and parts of it are so fast faster than like you have to make a split second decision right, and there are parts that are so painfully slow that it feels like time is just stopped.
April Snow: 18:39
Yes, this is. I mean, this is high pressure for anyone, but I'm just thinking as an HSP who is literally wired to process slowly, to think about decisions for a really long time, who has to kind of minimize stimulation physically, emotionally, mentally. This is, you're putting yourself through the ringer.
Liz Gray: 18:58
Yes, in every way physically, but also it's this mental game that you have to play and emotionally, just the impact of having, you know, it was five different ways that I took medications, but it was in total. I took 17 different types of medications. Wow, that's a lot, a lot. And my doctor, who was fabulous, was very, I say, aggressive with her treatment, meaning that she really pushed, you know, my body to the limit because she knew that I could get more.
April Snow: 19:31
Right, but at some point does that? Yes, you could, but is it at some point I don't want to, or it's too much? Even though physically I can, maybe, emotionally I can't.
Liz Gray: 19:43
I think. For me it was almost like it's either all or nothing.
April Snow: 19:47
Yeah, you have to keep going.
Liz Gray: 19:49
Yeah. But, I also know that for a lot of people they need a slower pace, they need a gentler course of treatment, and what's funny is like typically, I would be that person who needs a lot of time because, as you were mentioning, like, I need a lot of time to process and but also maybe there was a fear that if I took a pause, I wouldn't be able to start up again.
April Snow: 20:12
Well, that too, it's just thinking about what you already know about this process. There's going to be such a deep resistance from your nervous system next time, knowing just how intense it is and depleting it is. So at this point it's like, well, it's better to keep going.
Liz Gray: 20:28
Yeah, and actually so there's a so there's so many different procedures, but there's something called duo stim, which is essentially doing two egg retrievals in one cycle, so not giving my body time to adjust after that egg retrieval and like get my period and then start up again. It's basically like a couple of days after you start the stims again, just go right back into it, Yep. And so our plan after the first retrieval actually was to go right into the next one and do duo stim. But I developed mild OHSS, which is when your ovaries hyper overstimulate, and so I did actually have to give my body a little bit of a rest, and when I say a little bit of a rest, the typical amount, you know like a couple extra days. But my body was like nope, we can't go right into it too much.
April Snow: 21:21
Yeah, sometimes your body will tell you the answer.
Liz Gray: 21:24
Exactly.
April Snow: 21:26
Throughout this. I mean, we've talked about why it could be harder as an HSP, but is there any parts of being sensitive that actually was helpful during this process?
Liz Gray: 21:34
well, I think thinking things, you know, having a plan a, b, c, um. I think some of that was definitely helpful at times I'm not going to say all the time. Probably one of the biggest pieces that was helpful is my need for connection is so deep that I ended up finding really amazing providers who were trauma-informed and sensitive and who really guided me throughout the process.
April Snow: 22:08
Yeah, it seemed like that was a bolster throughout, whether it be with your husband, whether it be with your doctor saying you can do this, let's help you see the bigger picture here, to help you keep going. That's so important to have the right people around you, and I mean at any time in life, but especially when you're going through something so vulnerable and high stakes. That makes sense. So, those relational gifts of being sensitive, you pick the right people I did, and maybe having good intuition helps too. I wonder, as an HSP, like knowing like this person feels right. I wonder if that came in at all.
Liz Gray: 22:45
Yeah, and knowing when the person didn't feel right also, yes, and part of the reason that and we'll get into this at the end but part of the reason I created a new business and formed a national directory is because my first doctor, before the one that I'm talking about, was terribly insensitive and really activated my trauma and it was such an upsetting experience that I went through that. I, you know I tend to I don't get angry very often, but when there's an injustice and when I'm personally affected by it, that's when I tend to act and I actually kind of love that specific type of anger that comes up in me, because it's like fire, it just feels like I have to do something about it. And I think my sensitivity really played into that, because it was just this again, this passion, this fire, and you know it ended up getting me to where I am now.
April Snow: 23:52
You know it ended up getting me to where I am now. Yeah, it's so empowering and useful because you know we're emotionally impacted. But then we can channel that emotion into action and there's no other choice. Like I don't want other people to go through what I've went through.
Liz Gray: 24:03
That's exactly what I've said since the beginning.
April Snow: 24:05
Right and I know well I imagine. I don't know for sure, but that's what helps spark you into saying I'm going to help other people find the right providers because I don't want them to go through what I just went through.
Liz Gray: 24:16
Yes, yeah, my pregnancy. During the birth postpartum, I've come across providers who have done so much harm and it's not okay, first of all, but I want to empower other women that it's okay to say no, it's okay to fire a provider for any reason, it's okay to. It's not just okay, but it's essential to have a team of people that you feel safe and comfortable with, because infertility and pregnancy, I think especially, are the most vulnerable times that a person might ever go through in their life.
April Snow: 25:00
We are a very vulnerable population. Absolutely, and it's okay to have standards of who you want to bring into that process with you. High standards, high standards, high standards. Yes, exactly. Yep, I want to talk about parenting, but before we do, I'd love to pause on this point a little bit. Let's say someone is starting the process of looking for a provider. What would you say is a big red flag to look for in a provider?
Liz Gray: 25:29
Oh, a red flag? Okay, I thought you were going to ask okay, what should they look for? So something that I started doing is actually doing a couple of consultations and interviews with providers before deciding to work with them. Smart and I mean, I will say that to interview doctors at an infertility clinic, you have to be registered as a new patient. So it is paperwork. I mean it felt like I was signing my life away just filling out so many forms about my history.
Liz Gray: 26:01
I mean, you know, essentially, think about when you're going to a new doctor, but this is like super intense. So I just know that it's probably going to be a process, but I'd much rather someone go through and meet with the doctor and decide this isn't right and to like go through and get weeks, months in and realize this isn't the right person and then have to switch anyway, right? So I think again. Ok, I know I went to. What should you do?
April Snow: 26:31
but with that being, said let's talk about both. Yeah, yeah.
Liz Gray: 26:34
Yeah, I think there's a lot to learn though, during those consultations. Oh, and what I was going to say is a red flag is if the provider doesn't have an answer to the question like tell me how you're trauma informed or tell me how you support patients emotionally. Yes, because that's something that was, for me, personally, very important was to find a provider who understood the nuances and the sensitivity of working with someone who was going through infertility and then pregnancy and had a history of sexual trauma Like to me. I needed to have that extra degree of sensitivity and I didn't think there were too many wrong ways to answer that question until I asked the question and the answers were really telling and really disappointing, ranging from oh, I don't know, I've never thought about that Whoa?
Liz Gray: 27:31
Yep To the midwife who I ended up choosing, giving just such a beautiful answer, which she gave specific examples of how she asked for consent and, you know, wants to know about my history. And then she also said and I learned from my patients too, and so I realized yep, exactly, she was collaborative, she wanted to know from me also, and that felt so safe. And that was the answer I didn't even know I was looking for, but I was.
April Snow: 28:02
That's it. You know when you feel safe. Yeah, and you brought up a good point, which is even if you think you know the answer, ask the question anyway. Just in case. You said, I don't think that there would be a wrong answer to these questions, but you found out there was Not everyone's trauma-informed, not everyone is collaborative. I think we have these assumptions about providers that this is how they should be, but a lot of times they're not. We have to ask those questions, lettuce or not.
Liz Gray: 28:28
We have to ask those questions and what I found too, with medical providers specifically, is they can be a fantastic medical doctor, yes, and the bedside manner may not be so great. And I think that's what can be really challenging. Is that conflict, that disconnect, when you get someone who gives you really great medical care and they can do harm, emotional harm.
April Snow: 28:52
Absolutely, they could be a very skilled medical clinician. But then, right, that emotional piece is just as important. If they're not trauma-informed, if they're not client or patient oriented, they could. I mean, this is a very vulnerable process, as you shared. You need someone who's going to feel safe in that. Yeah.
Liz Gray: 29:12
And speaking of that first reproductive endocrinologist, the infertility doctor that we met with, she was TikTok famous, I mean, she is like very well known in the field. And she is again great at what she does. But I felt like a number to her and to the clinic as a whole and I think that's another piece of especially going through infertility as an HSP is. We can read people really well.
Liz Gray: 29:44
You know when you're being treated well or not you know when you're being kind of shuffled around and like not that I expect the red carpet rolled out for me but, I, expect communication, I expect respect, and even the basics weren't there.
April Snow: 30:00
Yeah, exactly, it's a good reminder. You know when something's off as an HSP. Oh yeah, trust it. Just because someone has a really strong reputation or has a really successful clinic, it's okay if you choose something that's less shiny, if it works for you and it feels safer and more welcoming. I mean, this is such an important time to be picky, if you can be.
Liz Gray: 30:25
Yeah, and there's a lot at stake and there's so much trust that you have to put into your doctor who's really guiding you and making a lot of decisions and, you know, using their expertise, because this is all new and scary and yeah, so it's just so important that you find someone who you feel like is really seeing you as a human being and as a person, not just as a number and someone to add to their, you know, stats of positive pregnancy test Exactly, and this is personal.
April Snow: 30:55
Yeah, so you've gone through this IVF process and I'm wondering if we can now talk about what was the transition like moving from that into parenting and I know not everyone gets to do that, but I wonder if we could speak to that process. Yeah, hard.
Liz Gray: 31:12
It was very challenging and I think what made it so hard for me is just a couple extenuating circumstances. One is having my birth plan essentially ripped up in a million different pieces and tossed out the window and lit on fire and stopped on. I mean all the things it's heartbreaking.
Liz Gray: 31:38
Yeah, it was, and it didn't go the way I planned. You know, my plan was to I mean, I interviewed multiple midwives. I knew I wanted a midwife rather than an OBGYN, and so I, you know, saw this midwife practice throughout my entire pregnancy. I picked out there were three different birthing suites. I got to go and I chose the middle one, like this is, you know, birthing suite number two. It's this beautiful room with a big tub, like I wanted to do a water birth and I had to get transferred to the hospital.
April Snow: 32:12
So all of this planning and I know you're such an organized person and you probably had this you get settled into this version of it, right, Like this is what I'm expecting, and then it just gets thrown out the window. So hard as an HSP, hard in general, also hard as an HSP when we need more time for change.
Liz Gray: 32:31
Exactly and well time I got, because the labor was 57 hours total 57 hours. Liz 57 hours.
April Snow: 32:42
Wow.
Liz Gray: 32:44
I had no idea how high of a pain tolerance I had until I went through that Sure, because 44 of those hours were actually unmedicated.
April Snow: 32:54
Sure. Until finally, almost two days, you're in labor with nothing to manage the pain. Exactly, yeah.
Liz Gray: 33:01
Minor. You know, I was open to anything really, except I really didn't want an epidural. But once I finally agreed to do it, it was the biggest relief and I was like why didn't I do this earlier? But no, I know why? But still okay.
Liz Gray: 33:18
It wasn't so bad, but I think what was disappointing is it wasn't my choice. That's the hardest part, right, yeah, so you know. And then eventually to have it was never an emergency but it definitely was an unexpected C-section. So to have that, to have a really, really insensitive doctor who something I've also struggled with is with her she provided fantastic medical care and her bedside manner was so I want to say, laughable. But there's nothing funny about it, but it's. It's like you can't even believe it how bad it is Exactly.
Liz Gray: 33:57
And I felt it, my husband felt it, my doula felt it, I mean it was. It was pretty awful the treatment that that we all received. But so, yeah, combination of this change in birth plan, C-section slash, traumatic birth and then developing postpartum depression made it really hard for me to connect with my son for a good three, four, almost five months.
Liz Gray: 34:25
We had some major feeding issues with him where I felt like all I was doing was breastfeeding him but he still wasn't gaining his birth weight fast enough. And so there's this added layer of our pediatrician basically thinking that we were neglecting our child and not feeding him. And it was um To be in such a daze from. I mean, I was on very heavy painkillers after the C-section, I was on barely any sleep, and then to have a physician basically say I think that you are not feeding your son and they diagnosed him incorrectly as failure to thrive. It was devastating, I mean just the scariest thing. And to feel so unheard, unlisted to. They weren't like anything that my husband and I were trying to say or explain. It was very much dismissed and it was literally like talking to a wall and we did end up switching providers and letting that one know why. But that was just another piece of all of it that made it really hard to connect.
April Snow: 35:46
Oh my gosh, I mean here you've already gone through IVF, which I haven't personally experienced, but just having supported clients through that process and friends, it wreaks havoc on your physical and emotional body, as you shared. And now to then go through a long, unexpected labor process and then, on top of that, now you're getting accused of not taking care of your child when you're working so incredibly hard to do everything you can while you're going through postpartum Yep. And this is so difficult, like and I can just imagine just the feeling of what these doctors are saying to you and not being heard in this Like I'm struggling.
Liz Gray: 36:29
Yeah, and what's really interesting, I think about the first visit of the pediatrician, where I mean this just gives you a sense of where I was mentally we brought a diaper bag. All I had in there was the hospital paperwork. I didn't have any diapers or wipes or anything, even though I, like I knew that it made sense. But also I'm like, oh, we live five minutes away, he's not going to need a diaper change.
April Snow: 36:55
Well was.
Liz Gray: 36:57
I wrong, and you know, and to be looked at like judgmentally, like oh, you didn't bring diapers, let me see if we have any versus what should have happened was oh my gosh, this happens all the time, whether or not it does you know, or this is the first time this has happened. Of course. You're exhausted, you're healing, I'm going to bring you some diapers Actually, in fact, I'm going to bring you a couple extra and you know, I think.
Liz Gray: 37:25
I needed to be nurtured and normalized and in that moment that was just one of many moments where I felt so judged and incompetent and already I was feeling that myself, I was judging myself and I was feeling like an incompetent parent. But then to have other people essentially say that to you it's not okay.
April Snow: 37:50
And you're so right that in that moment you needed compassion. Yeah, and you're so right that in that moment you needed compassion. Yeah, I mean, they have a new mom in front of them who, I mean they should know what new moms go through. They see it every single day, how much of a struggle that is. I mean, even if you were fully resourced mentally, emotionally, physically you still might not know to bring a diaper if you're five minutes away. Right, yeah, let's think about this and have a little grace instead of being critical and making you feel worse than you already do. Yeah, exactly, yeah, it just amazes me how many providers don't have that bedside manner when they're in the job of caring for people and as therapists, it's so unfathomable to me, but I know that they're kind of in a different space and they're just going through the physical motions of care. But I mean, it causes a lot of harm. I know we both have seen people on the other side of that. Yeah, absolutely, and lived it personally as well.
Liz Gray: 38:55
Yeah, and one of the hardest parts is my strong intuition has really guided me throughout my entire life, even before I knew what it was or understood. Yeah Right, and when I was experiencing postpartum depression, I felt like that intuition that I typically had was so off and I couldn't rely on that part of me, that unexplained part, that says when something feels off or not. And you know, I talked about it a lot with my therapist and she just had to keep reminding me, liz, but you did know, you knew that this wasn't the right doctor. You knew it wasn't failure to thrive because, fast forward, it was a tongue and a lip tie that my son had. Oh see, that's very different.
Liz Gray: 39:48
So different than failure to thrive. And it took, I mean because in the hospital when I was there for my recovery, a different pediatrician came in every day and checked on him. So we had four pediatricians, I think, see him over the days, and then at the practice that we left, there were three different doctors, so we saw all them. So that's seven doctors Plus. We ended up seeing two at a new practice that we're at now. Not a single one even mentioned the possibility of a tongue tie and maybe didn't even check, Didn't check, Didn't even consider it.
Liz Gray: 40:22
Wow, it was all I mean the diagnoses we got again failure to thrive. One doctor said he was a lazy eater.
April Snow: 40:29
Oh, here we go with the labels yeah, a lazy eater versus maybe thinking about what are the other options. This makes me so angry, I know.
Liz Gray: 40:38
I know I get really fired up when I talk about this because and so I had to really fight to get the correct diagnosis and ended up meeting with a I'd already been seeing a lactation consultant who it just wasn't quite the right fit, and so I ended up meeting with a new one who, right away, was like I see some red flags for Tugtai.
Liz Gray: 41:01
She said I want you to meet with the speech therapist. I'm also going to give you a referral to a pediatric dentist and also a doctor who is a pediatrician and a lactation consultant, so she can help you kind of rule out what's going on, cause it might be something on your end, it might be your son's end, or it might be both Right, and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is what I needed. Like yeah, and we met with all those people and, you know, within a couple of weeks we had the tongue and lip tie procedure, the frenectomy, and that day, either that day or the next day, my son was actually like able to turn his head while he breastfed rather than you know, like contorting his body and knee contort.
Liz Gray: 41:47
I mean, just the way that we were both kind of having to move our bodies in this really unnatural position was like. I think back to him and I'm like, oh, this poor little guy. He was just so tight, his whole body was so tight and all he wanted to do was just like release and be free. And then he was and then he was.
April Snow: 42:08
Oh, I'm just curious what's happened since that procedure. I mean, it's such a testament to find the right providers. Trust your instincts, advocate for yourself. So after that happens, I'm curious what? What's next?
Liz Gray: 42:23
Yeah, so at that point, when we met with that new lactation consultant, he was, I believe, the second percentile for weight for his age. So we were and he'd always been really small for his age, but that, you know, second percentile we definitely were. There were some concerns, right, we wanted to make sure that he was gaining weight. And after the tongue and lip tie release, after me being taught how to use the pump, having being, yeah, being fitted correctly because all these things too, I couldn't. I didn't have the brain power to figure it.
Liz Gray: 43:04
Even though I tried, I couldn't figure this out on my own so to have the resources and the tools to actually be able to produce enough milk to figure out how to feed him. We did drop, actually at one point below, like the percentile chart, so he was not even on it, which again was very concerning. But we got back up and slowly crept up and crept up, and crept up and at his nine month appointment he was in the 44th percentile. So amazing. Yes, the boy loves to eat.
April Snow: 43:38
He's making up for lost time.
Liz Gray: 43:40
He is, but he is just like the sweetest, funniest little ball of personality.
Liz Gray: 43:49
He is highly sensitive also like his mama and he's just doing so amazing. We just came back from a trip to Mexico. We flew with him and he was so great it, oh, I love it. Yeah, things are really turning around and and being a mom is still very challenging. There's no doubt about it. It's really hard. I'm still pumping for five times a day to give him milk, but it's also. He was meant to be my well. I'm still pumping for five times a day to give him milk, but it's also. He was meant to be my well. I'm trying to think of how I want to say this. Sometimes I look at him and I'm just like I'm so happy I'm your mom, like I just am so lucky that I get to be your mom.
April Snow: 44:27
Yes, isn't it so beautiful? Yeah, and you, I mean you, went through all of this and here he is. What an incredible story, yeah, of perseverance and strength and resilience, and both of you really. Yeah, I mean, he's a fighter.
Liz Gray: 44:45
He was stuck, I mean, birth was so long, it's because his head was like lodged in a weird place and he doesn does have kind of a big head. So you know, yeah, but both of us together have really, and my husband my husband.
April Snow: 45:01
I'll include him in this. Yes, of course.
Liz Gray: 45:03
You know, I think the three of us make a really great little team you do you so?
April Snow: 45:08
do Well, Liz, if there's any message you can leave. Sensitive listeners who have, maybe are starting or going through the infertility, going through their infertility journey or going through IVF what would you want to say to them? You're not alone.
Liz Gray: 45:25
And it's okay to need extra support. It's okay to release people from your life, whether permanently or temporarily, who are able to be emotionally supportive or supportive in other ways that you might need. And to find people, whether it's personally you know, having friends, whether it's joining an infertility group led by a therapist, or whether it is finding individual providers who specialize in infertility and really understand the nuances and the language, and it's okay to fire a provider who doesn't fit those high expectations that you have and that you really deserve.
April Snow: 46:17
Yeah, that you should have. Yeah, thank you. It's such a good reminder that community is important here more than ever, as you go through this, and I'll be sure to share your resources in the show notes, your website, your social media. Also, you have your maternal trauma support network for both parents and providers, correct?
Liz Gray: 46:41
Yeah, so it's a national online directory that connects women and birthing people to trauma informed providers who specialize in infertility, pregnancy, postpartum and early parenthood.
April Snow: 46:49
Beautiful, such an important resource. Well, liz, thank you so much for being here with us today.
Liz Gray: 46:56
Thank you so much, April, and your listeners.
April Snow: 47:06
Thanks so much for joining me and Liz for today's conversation. What I hope you'll remember is that it's okay to ask questions and trust your gut when choosing which medical providers to work with. If you're currently experiencing infertility and looking for resources and providers, or you're a provider yourself, you can check out Liz's trauma-informed maternal health network at the link in the show notes. Use code podcast for 20% off an annual membership. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSP resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
