49: Tidying Up + Letting Go of Overwhelm
With Rebecca Jo-Rushdy, KonMari Consultant
Are you overwhelmed by clutter? In this episode, I talk with Rebecca Jo-Rushdy about the impacts of tidying up and:
• How clutter and tidying up impacts our emotional, mental, and physical health
• The importance of digital boundaries and creating a sanctuary in your home
• Letting go of what doesn’t bring you joy and finding gratitude for your belongings
• Intentionally going through the six stages of the KonMari method of tidying up
Rebecca guides sensitive souls on transformational journeys by decluttering their homes, hearts and minds into sanctuaries that spark joy and flow. As a recovered shopaholic & drawing on her lived experiences she’s dedicated to helping other highly sensitive people turn their wounds into wisdom and their exhaustion into energy. Rebecca also facilitates wellness workshops and speaks for corporates, government agencies and NGOs on the power of decluttering our personal and professional lives so that we can be more focused, effective and happy in whatever we do. Rebecca has lived and worked all over the world. She was the first platinum KonMari® consultant in Malaysia, and in Edinburgh, Scotland where she is currently based with her husband and two wonderfully sensitive daughters.
Keep in touch with Rebecca:
• Website: http://www.sparkjoyandflow.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sparkjoyandflow
• Insight Timer: http://www.insightttimer.com/sparkjoyandflow
Resources Mentioned:
• Circle of Joy Community: https://circleofjoy.mn.co/plans/1444189
• Life Changing Magic of Tidying Up by Marie Kondo: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781607747307
Thanks for listening!
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sensitivestrengths
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 0:31
we don't realize, but it's the little, tiny changes that can make such a profound impact on our life. Right, but we have to create that foundation first. So we've been talking about the physiological impact that clutter has as well, and it's also a way to create new mental Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open.
April Snow: 1:04
I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Rebecca Jorusty about the emotional and physical impacts of tidying up and decluttering for sensitive people, what happens when you live more intentionally and meaningfully in your home life and relationships, and the power of making little changes. Rebecca guides sensitive souls on transformational journeys by decluttering their homes, hearts and minds into sanctuaries that spark joy and flow. Rebecca also facilitates wellness workshops and speaks for corporations, government agencies and NGOs on the power of decluttering our personal and professional lives so that we can be more focused, effective and happy in whatever we do. Rebecca has lived and worked all over the world. She was the first platinum KonMari consultant in Malaysia and Scotland, where she's currently based with her husband and two wonderfully sensitive daughters. For more HSP resources and to see behind-the-scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom.
April Snow: 2:30
And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. Welcome, rebecca. I'm so happy to have you on the podcast today. Thank you so much, april. I am so delighted. And thank you so much for responding to my request as well. Absolutely as soon as it came through, I was like absolutely yes, we have to talk about decluttering, as HSP is so important and I'm excited to dive into some of the layers. But before we do that, I always like to start off with hearing what your HSP discovery story is, how or when you realize that you're highly sensitive.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 3:28
Yeah, I mean when I discovered that I was an HSP, I would say it was only just a couple years ago. Like that this terminology just came of years ago. Like that this terminology just came into my world. You know Dr Elaine Aaron's work as well. But I've always known that I was sensitive, but not in a way that was empowering. You know, as a child I was always told that you're too sensitive, you can't take a joke, you know, you cry too much. All the things that were like, okay, I just have to like shove it under. And I ended up using my strengths and my superpower as a way to disempower myself, like being able to read the rooms, especially as a young child. But then it was more developed as the fear-based people-pleasing tendencies. I'm sure that comes up a lot in your work.
April Snow: 4:15
Absolutely it does. Yeah, and a lot of what you're saying resonates, you know, this feeling of I knew I was sensitive, but it definitely wasn't a positive and needing to work through that.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 4:26
Yeah, feeling like I'm never enough, right? So for me, this actually weaves in really nicely with what we're talking about today, because I lived in mega cities my entire life, which meant that I was basically living in a giant shopping mall, and so I started. My coping mechanism was shopping. I was consuming to try to fill a void of not feeling enough, and I started independently shopping since I was eight years old.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 4:56
Oh, you would shop on your own, that young yeah, because, you know, I lived in cities where we had a lot of freedom. It was like very safe as well, but it meant that, like you know, you're at a bus stop and then there's also like tons of shops next to you. So it wasn't just waiting for the bus, I was like, oh, you're always constantly shopping, you were exposed to it and it's just also the bombardment of advertisement, right, and as a child I was left to my own devices a lot. So back then, nowadays it would be smartphones, right, like devices, literal devices, but back then it was magazines, you know. So I was exposed to a lot of magazines and so I didn't get the best, I wasn't directed in the best way possible with the best influences. So in my mind, I was bombarded with the media's notion of like, oh, you will be happy if you have X, y and Z or if you follow these trends. So I just kept shopping and shopping and shopping. So.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 5:50
But, having said that, I grew up in a very tidy household because both my parents have a lot of Japanese influences behind them.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 5:59
So it wasn't that it was cluttered, but my internal world was very cluttered, and it wasn't until I read Marie Kondo's book that I realized I was like, oh, I've been tidying wrong my entire life, my entire life.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 6:18
So this is why and I'm a reform shopaholic now so if this resonates with any audience members with, like you know, stress, shopping, being in debt, all that kind of stuff, then I'm really excited to like dive in further on that too. So that's my HSP story. I realized that a couple of years ago that is actually a strength, and I actually have two HSP daughters who are eight and 10 years old. So this has been a tremendous part of my healing journey, because I realized I can repair myself by giving them the tools that I wish I had growing up, so that they're also able to recognize that a sensitivity is a strength. You can take ownership of what joy means to you. You don't have to follow the crowds or the masses, and a huge part of that learning is actually they've been kumari. They've been doing this decluttering method since they were two years old.
April Snow: 7:10
Wow, so you started them off early. I love that.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 7:14
Guinea pigs April. Let's see if this works on them too. But it's been magnificent, and this is also why I've also evolved my business. I think I'm actually on my five-year anniversary of being certified as a consultant, so what that means is I'm certified under Marie Kondo's method. I read her book over a decade ago and then actually dived into this work about five years ago and, yeah, over the last couple years I realized I was like you know again, removing that fear, like this whole process is not about just decluttering or physical, but it's also about letting go in a healthy way, of thoughts and beliefs that don't serve us. So a couple years ago I decided I was like you know, I think'm going to have that courage to shift and serve who sparks the most joy for me, which is the HSP community.
April Snow: 8:03
Yes, I love that you're giving back because just your experience of you grew up in a tidy home, you said, but your outside world was not tidy. There was a lot of stimulation and expectation to fit into the shopping culture that we all get pulled into right.
April Snow: 8:20
But realizing what success looks like Exactly what success looks like, right, exactly. And so you're hinting to me that there's decluttering possible on so many different levels. And so I saw on your website you talk about the impacts physically, emotionally, spiritually, even around working or living in clutter. So I wonder if you could speak more to that, because that was really intriguing to me, because I'm someone who's very impacted by clutter. I need a clean space and I love to tidy and I love to get rid of things, because for me it's mental, like peace of mind or mental clarity when I'm decluttering. So I'm curious about those other layers, if you could speak to it.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 9:03
You know, like just on a practical note, what happens to us physiologically when we look at clutter is it will activate your cortisol levels.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 9:12
So I didn't know that a lot of people don't know this and, like I, actually do a lot of workshops, like corporate workshops as well, and there's a lot of stressors in life, right, like, as you know, as we all know, you can't control the traffic, you can't control what emails are going to come through in your inbox. But I want to say, like this is something that is within our power Having a space that supports us, that that can nourish us, that can charge us up so that we can face whatever that's going to come our way and also I like to compare it to.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 9:45
You know we're so mindful to charge all of our devices, you know just so. Think of your home as your charging port. So that's where your bedroom I know that you have a lot of sleep resources on your website as well your bedroom is a sanctuary. Your bedroom charges you up, so it's like there's sleep and there's good sleep. So I'm actually pretty obsessed with sleep hygiene as well. So this is like all part of it. Like I always say to people in my workshop, I'm like you know, if you're not ready to declutter, the one tip that I will give you is it takes 10 seconds to do and you will gain back so much energy. Take your charger out of the bedroom. If you have one in there, take the device right, because I find that this is actually a pivotal part of the equation.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 10:33
I meet so many people who want to. They have the desire to, you know, to declutter or get on track with their health, fitness, whatever it is. But what's holding them back? They're like got no time, got no energy. I'm like you know, this 10 second hack is going to change your life. You're going to be able to expand your energy field, because this is the issue. It's too tempting right now. The last thing that you see, the blue light're going to be able to expand your energy field. Because this is the issue. It's too tempting right now. The last thing that you see, the blue light's going to impact our sleep. That's the first thing that you see, right.
April Snow: 11:04
Yeah, I'm just thinking about that. We've talked so much about physical clutter, but we're welcoming in so much mental clutter with our phones, our devices.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 11:12
Yes, yeah, you have to be able to put those boundaries in place because you know, let's face it, it is a Pandora's box, right? It's so tempting I mean, we've all been there, we've all felt the flex in the pool, right? It's like, you know, those days when, like you're trying to, somehow, you're trying to surf the entire internet in one sitting yes, take it all in. Yeah, so, and this is also where, like you know, it becomes a way to short circuit. So I actually most of my work is primarily online, yeah, and I actually do get very overstimulated from screen time. I wonder if it's the same for you absolutely I.
April Snow: 11:48
When I'm not working, I've developed a bit of an aversion to being on the screen because there's too much of it, or there's enough of it during the workday.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 11:57
Yeah, and it's like being able to. It's not about eliminating. Like you know, james Clear says this really beautiful it's when you're trying to lessen a habit as well, like lessen the control of a habit that there is. It's really about replacing it. So, rather than saying, oh, I'm not allowed to do this, it's like, okay, I'm going to replace this with this, right. So it's like, okay, you have no phone in your bedroom. It's like replacing it with a book that you want to read, or like a magazine. And if it's a lighting issue, then get a lamp. That's going to right. Or an alarm clock Right, exactly Like that's a, that's a big one that a lot of people say they're like oh, but what about my alarm?
April Snow: 12:34
clock is that okay then.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 12:35
Oh, like I, I do recommend those sun sunrise alarm clocks that's what I have.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 12:40
Yeah, it's so, gentle so gentle and if you are an hsp like, it's just such a gentle way to wake up too. So like little hacks like that, like we don't realize, but it's the little tiny changes that can make such a profound impact on our life, right, but we kind of have to create that foundation first. So we've been talking about, like the physical you know, the physiological impact that clutter has as well and it's also a way to create new mental space and clarity.
April Snow: 13:08
Yes, yes absolutely, because we're taking something out, space can actually come in for once.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 13:15
Yeah, and if people are are, you know, interested in like manifestation all that? Then it's actually a way to welcome in new opportunities and to be able to align yourself. So there is a reason why. So I don't know if you're familiar, but maricondo's book is actually called the life-changing magic of tidying up, and it's sold over 4 million copies maybe it's even more now translated into over 40 languages too. The title is bold, right like the life-changing magic of lighting up.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 13:43
That's very bold yeah well, but why this happens is because, you know, people go through extreme transformations. Even for my family, like you know, I told you we grew, I grew up in mega cities. I was under the conditioning that I was like, okay, this is how I should raise my children, just kind of going with, like okay, just plodding along and then after I've done my hiding festival so that's also another cute terminology Like, instead of saying, oh, it's decluttering, because oftentimes that has a negative connotation to it, maric connotation to it. Marukondo actually calls it a tidying festival.
April Snow: 14:15
So when you hire home.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 14:22
the first foundation that you lay down is called the tidying festival. It's actually a direct translation from Japanese, which is katatsuke matsuri, so it's literally just me tidying festival.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 14:29
So it's something we want to look forward to, right. And then, when we completed our tidying festival I think it was about a year later I finally had that courage to like face this question that my husband had been posing for some time, like he wasn't happy where we're living. But I was just kind of like blinders on, don't want to think about it. And it finally gave me the courage that like no, this is not my ideal life, this is not my ideal family life either. And so we actually co-married. We let go of the city that we're living in and we took a family gap year. For an entire year we did slow travel and our kids were gosh they were not even three and one at that time.
April Snow: 15:11
Wow, this is amazing. I mean, your family is kind of just really blossoming at that point and you're like, no, we need to change. And I love this letting go on a bigger scale. It's like expanding a couple of things here, and I also love the tidying festival and that it's something to look forward to, it's a celebration, not a chore, and that we can apply it to every part of our lives and we were talking privately about. You could even declutter your relationships, not just your home or your other parts of your life, but this can touch everything.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 15:45
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And, like you know, that's the bigger stuff in life, right? And I find that, like, even if you, you know, in all spiritual teachings, and even if you are not spiritual too, everyone's always talking about letting go. Right, Let go of the limiting beliefs, let go of that relationship, a toxic relationship, and whatnot, and I'm like you know, but that's diving into the deep end. We're not taught how to let go as a society. If anything, we're taught to hold and accumulate and get more. I mean, just look at the state of the world, right.
April Snow: 16:18
Right, exactly.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 16:20
And we're not taught, and so this is actually like I always pose, as, like you know, our home is a training ground. Like this decluttering method is a way to learn how to let go in a healthy way. So we start with gentle. That's why I'm like you know, this method is so perfect for hsps. Yeah, because with, like you know, the things that we have in our own home, it might feel really basic. Does it spark joy? Does this bring me purpose? Right, but before you practice it, it's like a muscle by the time you get to those intangible, really challenging, you know, energetically charged items. It is a mindfulness practice as well, so you're able to sit still with what's coming up in your body and then let it go with gratitude. So gratitude is a is a huge component, and it's also why it's so different from traditional organizing. So I have to you actually have to be grateful for the things that you are letting go. That's the healthy letting go. If you let go with shame, regrets, anger, you're actually still storing those emotions inside of your body.
April Snow: 17:27
That makes a lot of sense, because these objects do represent different emotions or memories and if you don't get closure with the items just like if you don't get closure with the items, just like if you don't get closure with a relationship the door is open and you're still holding that. That makes a lot of sense and there's like this building up we're starting step one instead of trying to jump to step 10 uh, yeah, and it can be, like you know, it's almost like we can ritualize as well, because it's also tangible, right?
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 17:55
so let's say, like this mug is from a relationship that was no longer in my life.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 18:01
You know, for you you might be like oh, that's a cute mug, but for me, like you know, there's a lot of shame around it and then so, instead of just chucking it like, oh, screw that person, you know like they treated me terribly it might actually just look like it takes time, like take as much time as you want, because everyone's going to have that different emotional readiness. You might not be ready to let it go. That's also okay too. So it's really tapping into where you are at in your journey and it's like okay, what has this person taught me? You know it's like thank you so much. You've now taught me what kind of people that want to be surrounded by.
April Snow: 18:40
Right. I mean, what a beautiful healing process, and just especially for HSPs, because we do place a lot of symbolism and meaning on objects and things that represent our experiences. So to know, like I have this mug and this mug actually is very special to me that I have here but let's say, something changed. I could take my time, I could remind myself what it taught me and then I let it go, and I'm letting it go like clear. Yes, how beautiful.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 19:05
And it could even be something really practical right Like it might be like oh, I wasn't supposed to put that into the dishwasher.
April Snow: 19:11
Right.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 19:14
So when we go through that, it's almost like you when we have these mindful pauses to reflect. So I like to frame it. As we reflect, we reframe and then we release it. So when we reflect on it, then we can reframe it and then we can release it, right. So, even something like that, let's say that these don't function well, for example right, I'll give you a good example. It's like, let's say that, like, these work really well, like I have very small ears, so I actually use children's earbuds, like and.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 19:43
So when you hold it, you're like oh, it sparks a lot of joy. Just like your mug, it holds special meaning. So, actually, as HSPs, when we are surrounding ourselves with these conscious choices of what you have decided to bring into your home or allow into your home, it will energize you. So the same goes with, like you know how I said earlier about just seeing clutter will raise your cortisol levels, but at the same time, it's like when you're in a calm space, right, just like looking at your background behind you, your selfie is beautiful. So then it's like oh, that feels really good on the nervous system. So it will actually calm your nervous system too. This is also why before and after pictures go viral on social media. There's a reason why these kind of cleaning content, these hiding content, go viral because it actually is soothing the nervous system.
April Snow: 20:36
That makes sense because whenever I see those I feel so deeply satisfied and like a sense of relief. And I don't even know the person or the space, but I still feel the benefit.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 20:47
And I mean also because we're HSP, so we feel it on the neck on another level. But yeah, it's just about you know, it's because I also want to just share with the audience as well. This isn't about minimalism, like a lot of times this is like quite a big myth, because Marie Kondo, her aesthetic, is very minimalist, so people have this idea that like, oh, I have to get rid of everything I know. Actually, the method is all about what do you want to keep in your life? So this is all. There's a lot of positive psychology infused in the two. So, yeah, for folks who are not familiar, I can give like a brief overview. That would be great. Yeah, so the Kulmari method.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 21:26
We actually have five rules, right, wait, six rules. So the first one is to commit yourself to tidying up, because without commitment we're not going to get very far, as we all know, with anything in life. Right, like, you can just have wishful thinking, but so we've got to commit ourselves. Number two is imagining your ideal lifestyle. So this one I found really, really tricky. When I first read the book, I was like, what is this Like? And I realized now, like now I can share, after having over a decade of experience too, it's like I wasn't giving myself that permission to dream, yes, and so whenever we go through the ideal lifestyle and this can look different for people, right, like, whether you're, if you're into journaling there's journaling prompts Like, I actually have journaling prompts as well of, like what kind of people do you want to be surrounded by? How do you want their space to feel? Where are you? How do you want to feel about yourself? Like just those kinds of questions. If people are more visual, you can totally make a vision board that's very popular too or even a Pinterest board board if you want to do it in digital way. So it's just a way like, and the big tip I have for everyone is, if you are doing this, just allow yourself to feel relaxed and don't be held back by barriers such as money, time commitments. Just park those by the door and just allow yourself to to dream big, and it's going to look different for everyone.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 22:50
Some people might be like hey, my ideal life is to have a beachfront property Great, there's. Some people are going to be like I'm really happy in my home, I just want to start my day off with a calm cup of coffee, and that's also wonderful too. So the method is really like this there's no judgment as well, because it's about what you define as joy, right? So then the other rules are more technical. So we go by category, not room by room, right, but this is quite different from like normally people do. That I'm going to do my garage, I'm going to do my kitchen. So the categories in the Komari method is the first one is clothing. Second is books, third is paper. Fourth is called kimono, which is miscellaneous in Japanese. So that means everything else under the sun, like the garage items, seasonal items, hobby items, toiletries, medication.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 23:47
So everything that's not clothing, books or paper fall under category number four, and then the last one is sentimental items. So we go through the sequence because we're actually building the muscle, so clothing is typically the easiest. Okay, I also have another theory. It's like because you know the um, your skin is your largest organ, so you get to take ownership of what you want to put on your body.
April Snow: 24:15
That's powerful.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 24:17
It is for HSPs especially right.
April Snow: 24:19
Yes.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 24:21
And then so when you go through that because it's like you know, I also I used to question myself a lot. I used to not trust my gut and my intuition, to always kind of handing the power over to others, even things like, oh, where do you want to eat? It's like, oh, wherever you want to eat right.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 24:36
Like those kinds of things. So it's like when you start to practice, okay, what is my full body? Yes, what do I want to wear? Who am I now and who am I becoming? And it's represented by you know. Just, it seems very basic, but it's quite symbolic.
April Snow: 24:55
Oh, it feels so deep, and I can understand why HSPs might struggle with not only the dream, the step number two, but also then how do I want to feel? What do I want to represent? What do I want to put on my body? We're so. We're often giving those choices over to someone else or being influenced. So what powerful kind of reclaiming of our voices through this process.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 25:20
There's a lot of body shaming, I mean, and then it comes through so many sources, right, we're surrounded by it too, so it really goes back to like I mean sometimes some of the work, because it depends for me like it differs from person to person, but especially when it comes around body like what weights, weight yo-yoing, fluctuating as well we do a lot of the reframing work around. That too will be about. You know, you're not defined by the label, right, like I want to just be. You know, I want to be the fittest, healthiest version of myself, versus I need to fit into and then this, this size, right?
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 25:56
exactly um, so it takes you're able to step back into your power. So we also have another rule, which is you cannot buy any decluttering organizing tools until after declutter first and then buy organizing solutions.
April Snow: 26:11
What was that? Could you give some examples of what that might be? Yeah, so.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 26:15
I always like to encourage people to just shop from your own home. Anything can be repurposed as an organizing tool, Like even get a tissue box, cardboard tissue box, cut off the top and then that becomes a separator as well. So I'm a big advocate of we have more than enough. It actually always proves that like we have more than a shoe box is great as well. So I'm a big advocate of we have more than enough. It actually always proves that like we have more than a shoe box is great as well. If you want to upgrade later, than do so.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 26:37
But what this actually helps to facilitate is mindful, intentional shopping. So when you're, you know exactly what you need to buy. So, for example, I work with a client on her kitchen before if we had gone the route of measuring everything, everything has to have, like those matchy matchy boxes and don't get me wrong, I love a good matchy matchy box but like if we had gone down that route, we would have bought dozens. You know like, oh, yeah, Right, just to fit it. But we followed a rule. So at the end all we needed to buy were two boxes.
April Snow: 27:10
Isn't that amazing? Because I've seen some of these kind of organizing shows or on social media and there's so many things that are bought and sometimes you need that. But I love what you're saying, which is you can use what's already in your home, which one brings more intention but also creates more accessibility for folks who can't go out and buy all the things. And also, things change as you pare down.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 27:33
Yeah, so in my own home, even though I do this as a profession, I have a blend. I have a mix of repurposed and some bought containers, and that's okay. I think this is also where I want people to also let go of Pinterest Perfect.
April Snow: 27:48
Ooh.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 27:49
Yeah, and because it doesn't bring the joy right, like I think the intention behind it is really about a space that serves you versus. I'm doing it for validation.
April Snow: 28:01
Right For the image.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 28:02
For the image. Like I mean, of course, like don't get me wrong Like, if aesthetics is your thing and it brings you a lot of joy, go for it. But it's always going back to like and I use this example a lot too even with like luxury goods, right, are you buying it because you really appreciate the craftsmanship and the quality, something that you want to be able to pass down, et cetera, or are you doing it because you feel like you need to look a certain way?
April Snow: 28:27
Right, exactly. Where is that urge coming from? Is it internal or external?
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 28:32
Yeah, so when we're able to kind of differentiate between that as well. You know, cause I used to have a lot of purses and handbags and I realized I was like actually no, I don't want to have that maintenance, especially with, like the guys that can get moldy. I was living in the tropics before. I'm currently based in Scotland, but I was living in this tropics before this, so you know, even just the maintenance as well you have to like. There's a thing, there's things called such as bag spas as well. Oh, bag spas yeah, what is that? It's like dry cleaning for purses.
April Snow: 29:04
Got it. I'm not a purse person, so I have no idea.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 29:13
I changed. I'm like I'm a I'm a canvas tote bag girl now and that's me, yeah, like I'm like just so happy with that and there's it, you get to just own it yeah, exactly, I mean just be who you are or use what works for you in your everyday life yeah and that's so like, yeah, and then so the rules okay, we've covered some of them and then so we have to do it in the right sequence as well.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 29:34
So the categories why we do it is because you know you, more often than not this is one of the mistakes I often see people are like I'm gonna do my garage, I'm gonna do my kitchen, but that is a kimono category. Category number four that's the high intensity zone already. So if you have never done a HIIT workout and you just go in like imagine what's going to happen, right, not good, yeah, you're not going to be happy. And then so it's so overstimulating, it's so overwhelming because it's one of those. Your kitchen especially it is a my friend and I we call it the sexy category. You know, like and kitchen are the sexy categories because it's the one where you actually feel this. It's such a high traffic zone that you feel that transformation and it is a good one, right, but then it is intense. It is intense because you have this force. You know you open one area, but then you're like okay, there's lots of mini school, little things that don't actually belong in the kitchen. So it overstimulates us and it will actually lead to overwhelm.
April Snow: 30:38
Makes sense because if I think about clothing, I'm focusing on one type of item versus a kitchen, a garage yes, they're high impact when they're done, but you're touching a million categories in those spaces and I just think about an HSP who gets easily overstimulated one but also develops decision fatigue. You're switching so many different things in your brain trying to figure out okay, where does this go, when does that go? This shouldn't be in the kitchen, this should be. It's just so much so. There's so much intentionality here in these categories, in the order, which to me is beautiful, because then I don't have to figure out how to approach this.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 31:15
Yes, and I'll also show you as well. So it's like you know, we also make it really gentle too. So, like how I was saying about like the categories too, right, there's clothing, there's books, there's paper, kimono, and then there's one more sentimental. But if you just go in, even if you're like feeling very overwhelmed, you're like I want to start, but I feel kind of overwhelmed because I have a lot of clothes and everyone's going to look different. I've worked with people who can do their entire wardrobe in 45 minutes. I've also worked with people who need it over 20 hours. Wow, that's a big difference, a big difference. And this is with somebody by their side, right, and there's going to be people I, you know, because I teach a lot online now too there's people who have like a lifetime of belongings, right, so, because they've never, ever done clutter before. So if you look at this here, it's divided into subcategories.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 32:03
Could you?
April Snow: 32:03
say a few, maybe just give a few examples.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 32:06
So like, for example, your tops, your bottoms, your dresses, your athletic wear, your shoes, jackets, winter wear, et cetera. So this also still follows the philosophy where we're going by the subcategory. I mean we're going by the category and the wisdom behind it is because when you can see it in its totality, it's easier to make sound decisions, like conscious decisions. So let's say, for example, april, like you're okay, I'm going to start, let's take out all your shoes, right, but out from you were not doing a room by room, so you've got to take the shoes from every area every place.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 32:41
Get them all together all together and then you see it. So this also creates a visual impact. So if anyone has watched the Netflix show before, then you'll see that there's the infamous mountain of clothing. Yes, exactly.
April Snow: 32:54
I have watched it and every time there's like a huge bed full of clothes. But that's true. It does leave an impact because if you have clothes in your bedroom, in the guest room, in the hall closet, you don't get to take it all in.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 33:08
No and like so there is that Marikano basically calls it it's like a shock to your system as well. So often than not, when you see it I mean how many of us are guilty of like standing in front of a closet and saying I have nothing to wear, right?
April Snow: 33:20
So when you have that visual impact, you're like I have more than enough, right, because you're seeing it all together, not just one sliver, and so the shock is intentional.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 33:35
Yes, and then it's also either I have more than enough or I have too much, yes, yes. So it's not. You know, we have to have these. It's almost like these epiphanies. It activates us as well. So this will actually help to shape our future purchasing behaviors and decisions too. So this is also how I'm a reformed shopaholic, right.
April Snow: 33:58
Yeah, when did that switch happen for you?
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 34:00
If you're open to sharing, yeah, of course I think it was once, because, when and this is why the method is so different, because I've decluttered my whole life, you know, like, my mom is like pretty OCD as well, so I didn't really have that problem of letting go, but it was more when you are able to link it back to the joy and gratitude which is the key components of the KonMari method, when you are grateful, when you're content, and that leads to happiness.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 34:27
So I realized, like you know, just even by holding things like and I used to not be able to enter a shop without leaving purchase something I used to buy a lot from fast fashion too. So even when I was holding those fast fashion items like that's really where the reflection comes in I was like, oh, you know what, like this t-shirt, I only wore it once or twice and then the shape is worn out, you know. So, instead of just talking it like how I normally would have, it was just kind of like you know what? I don't want to support sweatshop labor. I want to be able to support, like I want to purchase quality over quantity.
April Snow: 35:01
Yes, exactly, it really wakes you up.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 35:04
Yeah, and it puts the because it's coming from a place of empowerment. No one's forcing you. So I like to give a lot of these like crash diet analogies as well, because you know it's coming from a place of empowerment, no one's forcing you. So I I like to give a lot of these like crash diet analogies as well, because you know it's like, when you feel like force, when you're doing it from a place of fear and not good enough, etc. The rebound is bound to happen.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 35:21
But when you're doing this place of embodiment, it's coming from a place of love and gratitude as well. That's where the evolution can happen. You know we're not doing it from this shame-based place, yeah. So this is really like it's happened and I'm like okay, of course, like sometimes you might still have those buyer's remorse or whatever happens, but it's more like you're able to kind of be like okay, like this happened. But instead of dwelling on it, ruminating on it, it's like okay, what can I do better? What am I taking away from it? So this goes back into the whole letting go with gratitude component. Yeah, and I think it's really powerful as HSPs too, because we tend to ruminate. I still, I'm human, you know like but yeah, we're able to bounce out of it from a more empowering place yeah, it feels so empowering to feel like you have a sense of control and connection to your choices.
April Snow: 36:16
You're not maybe mindlessly buying things or making decisions without thinking well, what's the impact, what's my value here?
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 36:24
yeah, and I also just want to share as well, know, because we've talked about how the seeing the clutter increases the cortisol levels too. So, like one of the patterns that I've seen a lot. This is why I bring up about the digital devices, right, because that actually becomes an energy drainer in our lives. But another pattern that I've seen and especially having the privilege of going to people's homes is that you know, let's say that you have a very stressful job, your home is cluttered, you come home after a long day and then it's like another hit on your nervous system and actually it will activate coping mechanisms. There's research done on this where it will activate coping mechanisms such as binge eating, binge watching and mindless scrolling. So then what happens is it becomes like this really vicious cycle because you might be. If you're mindlessly shopping, that means more stuff's coming into your house. You might be going into debt. There's a lot more shame going in. Your sleep is impacted. Your diet is impacted, right.
April Snow: 37:29
Right. Everything is connected. You're just kind of feeding this cycle of shame.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 37:33
Yes, that's why I was like. You know, right off the bat. I'm like get the charger, create a charging station.
April Snow: 37:40
Yes, like a landing spot for your phone.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 37:43
Like get used to it. It took me a while to get used to it. I started this like my therapist taught us this, like about gosh, like I want to say yeah, over a decade ago now, and it was slow going at first, I still felt myself like my husband has a joke, like in the beginning, literally, he was like I know where to find you. You'll be at the charging station. So we started off kind of gently as well, like I was like okay, put, the charging station was in the kitchen. And then it was like okay, let's set a curfew for the devices, you know, step by step, because it's not easy, because it's so pervasive in our lives.
April Snow: 38:18
Yeah, we need to gently step ourselves down, just like with the decluttering. You're going to gently going through the process. You're not doing it all at once on one day, just one step at a time and it's really about like okay, where's your?
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 38:32
you know, we have our comfort zone and then we're, we have our stretch zone as well. So where is your stretch zone? Because this is also where it's going to look different. And then, after the stretch zone, is your panic zone right? So everyone's going to look different, like. Some people are going to be like oh okay, great, Like, listen to this podcast and be like okay, I can do my entire house. But some people are going to be like oh okay, great, like, listen to this podcast and be like okay, I can do my entire house. But some people might be like okay, I need to you know, let this marinate for a little bit longer.
April Snow: 38:56
Yeah, exactly, and I love that there's permission for that. You don't have to rush through, and I know you offer resources for folks, which we'll touch on in a bit, but it's just good to know you can do it all on your own. You can reach out for help, you can take your time with it. Right, the goal it doesn't sound like it's not perfectionism.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 39:13
No, no, not at all. Like that's something that we can let go of. Yeah, we can let go of that too. Let go of that too, you know, especially, for I think this is something that's pretty powerful, especially for anyone who is living with, like you know, being a perfectionist, and I think that is a recurring theme as well, especially for HSPs, especially for women too, because there's so much weight that's put on us, like we have so much invisible weight that we're carrying, not even just from what we've been exposed to, but also from what our ancestors have gone through as well.
April Snow: 39:46
It's intergenerational, yeah.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 39:48
Yeah. So it's like when we're able to see, like even this scarcity mindset, it comes out a lot when we're doing this decluttering because you might have been taught or you might have been. It's the model from a young age that maybe it's like parents who have gone through the depression or they've lived through wars. Of course they've gone through really traumatic times, so they're like, literally, you can't throw anything away.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 40:08
Exactly so. It's a really, really healing process. You're like, okay, thank you so much, and it goes back to the gratitude. It's like thank you for everything that you have done. You know, but I now know, right now, I don't have to live that way.
April Snow: 40:24
Not only healing yourself, but you're healing that lineage, yes.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 40:32
Especially if you have, if any listeners have like children as well, it's really, really empowering. I mean, I know that we do live in a time now where it's the other end of the spectrum, where it's like one click purchase, same day delivery. You know, kids are like where's my package?
April Snow: 40:46
You know Exactly Like. They want it instantly.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 40:49
Yeah, the instant gratification right, so it's like we need to find that nice balance as well. So I love also guiding. I mean this method is for everyone. I've taught everyone from age two to 80, because we all need to be taught how to let go right and get used to it, because it's actually it's a basic life skill that we're never taught.
April Snow: 41:08
It's true. I wonder if you could share just briefly how your kids have responded to this whole process.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 41:15
It's interesting. So, like for my eldest, she's really taken to it. She's 10, going on, 11 now, and it's so cute because I teach it as a self-soothing, self-regulation tool. So you know, when we're feeling a little bit overstimulated, it's like just folding the things and then, you know, putting it back or reorganizing things. That will actually calm our nervous system. So I've caught her a few times when she was feeling like, you know, worked up, going and reorganizing her drawers as well. It's the cutest. And even for my youngest she's more attached to things. But I've seen, because it's through the practice, right, she's less and less attached, right, and then it's also helps because they are able to. You know we're all going to have big emotions, but then we're able to bounce back a lot quicker, but then we're able to bounce back a lot quicker.
April Snow: 42:05
I mean, what a beautiful way to learn to regulate because it's tactile, you're putting your focus on something that you can solve, so there's a sense of control there, yeah, and it's so regulating, just having that process. And that's exactly what I do when I'm feeling stressed, like I want to organize something, I want to clean something up, it works.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 42:27
It's so helpful. This is also a really great tip for HSPs. I tell this to everyone because I were, and we both work primarily you know, on online right and it's our lives but we can actually empower ourselves.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 42:35
So when the house is like set up with systems too, it just becomes it's so easy to reset. Like my house is not perfect all the time. I have two young kids, but the two is we can reset it, I can go around, but it's like I can pick things up from around the house, like I'm just picking up things, right, but what happens is that because I know exactly where things go, you can actually activate your flow state of mind. It's like like okay, this goes into the kitchen sink, this goes into my backpack, this goes into my little work caddy so there's a sense of movement there and ease yes and then we're also breaking free from the screen time as well.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 43:15
Or you can even just be like oh, I'm just gonna wash the dishes right now. You know, I'm a cancerian so I'm a water science. I really love like water really soothes me and like calms me as well. So it's just like oh, okay, I'm just doing the dishes during a putting away that kind of thing, right, so we can use our house as a self soothing and self regulation tool.
April Snow: 43:32
I love that so much we're just taking that in.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 43:35
We can use our house.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 43:39
I'm like I really want more people to know about this, because it's like, don't get me wrong, it's great to treat yourself all that kind of stuff, to take a bubble bath, et cetera. I'm like, yeah, you know, there's so much beauty and being able to take care of your home and to show that gratitude for it too, and when there are systems in place that means that every single person living under the same roof can pitch in it becomes their responsibility too. So my kids you know it doesn't happen overnight, obviously, because there's training, there's obviously like age appropriate chores, all that kind of stuff. But my kids now they can make their own breakfast or lunch. They have their bags packed.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 44:17
I don't have to go down to the kitchen until 8am so I get to do my meditation as well. I get to. You know I'm an HSP, I'm not a morning person, so I was like I need to have like slow mornings and there is going to be bickering in the background. I get really activated. But I know like eight out of 10 times like they have a handle on their things. This is fosters independence too, it cultivates confidence and it means that you invest this time to do this. You will absolutely gain it back.
April Snow: 44:50
Yeah, you're feeding yourself so much Like you're regulating, you're empowering yourself, you're cleaning up your space. I mean there's so many good things happening, just ricocheting off each other.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 45:01
And like. If the family members ask me, though, like, oh, where's so many good things happening just ricocheting off each other? And if the family members ask me they're like, oh, where's this? I can tell them oh, it's here, this drawer, left-hand side, go get it yourself. So, as an HSP, our energy is our currency, so you're not using up precious currency and reserves on trying to find something, and when you're trying to find something that you cannot locate, stress hormones go through the roof.
April Snow: 45:23
So stressful. And you're right, as much as we can delegate and empower others to do for themselves whether it be children or spouses or roommates or family that energy that we get back is so precious, it is so important yeah.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 45:40
And you can focus on the things that matter Exactly.
April Snow: 45:43
Exactly.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 45:50
Some setup. It means that you can focus on creating more like. What do you want to focus on? Like for us, it's like okay, we want to be able to spend time with the kids, be able to you know, train them, right. It's like the things that I was saying. It's like if the space wasn't supporting us, I wouldn't be able to teach them how to make some basic items like pancakes, eggs, all that kind of stuff. Life skills, exactly, yeah. So it's also a way to just focus on like. Okay, you'll be able to expand your energy field, and I also want to. This is one of the top questions that I get all the time, so I kind of want to address this as well, because people are always asking about like, how do I make my X, y, z? But like, declutter or pick up after themselves. So with that, I just want to address like.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 46:29
The KonMari way is that we don't force anyone. We hold space for them, right? So if they are not ready, that's okay, because when you start to feel that lightness, that energy change in yourself, too, people just naturally gravitate towards it, even animals, obviously. They're highly sensitive too, right? It's so funny. There's been like so many sessions that I've conducted, where people will be like oh my cat doesn't like people, they're probably going to clean the other room and they actually come into the room as we're decluttering because you feel the energy shifting too. But so it does come like.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 47:04
I hear it so often. People will be like oh my gosh. My husband asked me can I fold his underwear drawer the same way that I did mine, and it just becomes like a cute thing because it comes from a place of like. They want to do it, it's not forced. I mean, of course there are going to be people who are resistant, who are skeptics as well, and again that goes back into how we reframe it. Like my father-in-law he kind of mocks me about this as well but then instead of like of course it hurt. As an HSP, you know, I was like, oh, like. I felt offended by it.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 47:31
I'm like no, I'm not going to be offended by it. Like I honor that feeling, but let's reframe it. Instead of saying stuff like, oh, he'll never be able to kumari, I can say something like oh, when he's ready, I'm here for him Right.
April Snow: 47:44
Exactly, we're letting folks see it kind of vicariously how the energy shifts, how we've maybe changed, how the spaces function more, and they're like, oh, I want some of that, but let them get there on their own time, just like we're letting ourselves get there at our own pace, especially when we're helping out.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 48:02
Oh, the biggest tip I would say is also okay, so do not throw other people's stuff away when you're going through your journey. Only focus on your own things.
April Snow: 48:11
That's important, that makes sense.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 48:13
Yeah, and ask for permission too. So even with my kids too, and especially if you have young kids too, just kind of see where their emotional readiness is, because they might only have attention span for 10 minutes and that's okay. So what I would recommend for that is just to say, like, ask them if you can kind of see their attention is going like, of course I've been there, I will feel activated, I'm like, oh, you're not focused, whatever. But actually reframe it as okay, I see that you want to play with that toy. Like can I make the executive decision? Can I make the decisions for you? Because the whole process is about respecting and honoring their decisions.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 48:48
Yes, I love that, yes, and that this is actually where a lot of the little t trauma comes in for people, why they resist decluttering because they might have come home from school when they were younger and all of their things have been you know, some of their prized possessions might have been given away absolutely, and which are so important for kids, and a lot of times parents do that because it's easier in the moment, but it does leave an impact.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 49:14
Then people need to hold on, so it's tighter to their things right, it's like if you don't clean up your room, then I'm going to get a bin bag and throw everything out. That's so common. And I'm like, oh no, you know, because when we do it from a fear-based place, of course we know that like brute force can make anyone do anything. Looking through history, you know it's like that's not going to lead to sustainable change and transformation. So, yeah, with kids kids too it's just like hold space and then it's actually we can also reframe it as it's a really beautiful opportunity to connect and you get to understand those family members more, like what lights them up. So if you have kids, for example, then it makes it so much easier to be like oh okay, you know what? Like I don't have to buy them all these toys anymore, like they're literally only playing with lego, for example. So this helps you to create these little points of like.
April Snow: 50:09
Oh, you become a more discerning consumer right, not just for yourself, but for who you're buying for yeah.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 50:18
Or they're like oh, when we go to the shops, definitely they'll be like I want want this, I want this. But instead of saying no, you can't have it, it's like, okay, let's have conversations around it. Remember that one that we got last time. It was like, oh, you didn't play with it for that long. Is it going to be similar? Or oh, you want another stuffed animal, but oh, you have like 15 already.
April Snow: 50:43
Right, you're really kind of slowing things down for them and helping them see the big picture, and it seems like there's a lot of it about consent, which I really appreciate. Right, giving people the space to come at it on their own and intention, which is so important for all of us. But to learn it from a young age is so important.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 50:58
So important, especially for HSP kids too. So, like what this will actually lead to, the more we're able to. You know, even if they want to just keep that really tattered t-shirt because it reminds them of a really special memory, allow it, because even if you are like, oh, I really want to throw that away, that broken toy or whatever, it is Right, just remember that every round of joy checking. So joy checking is the maintenance. So tidying festival is a foundational thing. But the joy checking can happen periodically because we literally grow out of clothes and past versions of ourselves. So when we go through it, just remember the joy checking can happen as frequently as you want it to. It can even happen just when you're getting dressed in the morning. You're like, oh, have a quick glance at my t-shirts.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 51:40
Right, you're already in there makes sense and it will take no time because the foundation is laid already. So when they say, oh, I want to keep this and stuff like, and even if you don't want it, when you're honoring and respecting and hearing them and they're being seen as well, what this will lead to eventually is that they will be able to tell you the bigger things in life, because they know that mom or dad is not going to judge them. They feel safe to share with you.
April Snow: 52:12
Yeah, that's so true and important because you're right that you're opening up this dialogue instead of being the authoritarian yes, and then they will feel safer to come through and share what they're feeling or needing, because you've had some practice with it already.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 52:28
Yeah and like. Eventually, as they get older too, they realize that through the letting go practice, they realize that it will have been built within their operating system that they're like okay, you know what? Like I can let go of this, know what? Like I can let go of this toxic friendship, or I can let go of this job that isn't serving me.
April Snow: 52:45
Yes, right, it's going to ripple out through their whole lives. So I love that we were going backwards in time, doing healing, but then also teaching this next generation to treat themselves differently and have different types of relationships. Who knew the power of decluttering? Yeah, of tidying up? Exactly, rebecca, as we start to wrap up, I'm wondering if there's one message you want to leave listeners with.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 53:11
Absolutely. I think I want people to leave with that. Decluttering isn't about getting rid of things. It's about choosing what truly supports your well-being.
April Snow: 53:23
I love that. That's so beautiful and that you deserve it. It's so, so empowering, and I'll definitely be sure to share the resources. You mentioned your website, social media. You also have resources on Insight Timer, so I'll share all those in the show notes. But before we go, I'm wondering if you could tell listeners about your Circle of Joy community.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 53:45
Absolutely so. It's a private network, so it's for sensitive souls who want to declutter, and it's a joyful space as well, because, especially what we see nowadays, the internet can be really swampy. But I wanted to create a cozy corner on the internet. We need community right we? Need to connect. It's just like how we're having these amazing conversations too, instead of just like oh, just swiping through.
April Snow: 54:09
Yes.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 54:10
Rolling through.
April Snow: 54:11
Let's land and connect.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 54:14
Yeah, like, let's actually go beyond, and as HSPs, we get so tired of the surface level connections as well. So this is also where, like, I've made the conscious choices. Like I don't really teach on mainstream social media, I'm still navigating my relationship with it. I'm not sure where I land on it yet, but I was like in the meantime I have some cozy corners. I love that, and so I want people to also know that these are choices that we can make. It's like how is it impacting your nervous system? So, just like how your podcast creates so much nourishment to the HSP community as well, I want people to recognize that, like, you can recreate those vibes right in your own home, and then that will lead to curating that coziness that you desire in your life that coziness that you desire in your life.
April Snow: 55:05
Oh, I love it so much. We need more of that cozy, curated spaces where we feel safe and we can start to flourish and be our full selves. Yeah, thank you for the work that you're doing. This has been really enlightening for me. It's taken my love of tidying up to a new level.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 55:18
Oh my gosh, april, thank you so much for geeking out with me, because I could go on about this for ages, and thank you to the listeners as well for your time for listening to this conversation.
April Snow: 55:29
Yeah, thank you. I'll definitely have to have you back on.
Rebecca Jo-Rushdy: 55:31
Thank you so much, April.
April Snow: 55:41
Thanks so much for joining me and Rebecca for today's conversation. What I hope you're taking away is that, whether you're decluttering or doing something else, you don't have to do it all at once and you don't have to compare yourself to what others are doing. Instead, focus on what's meaningful to you and go at your own pace. If you're ready to start your own tidying festival, sign up for a free three-month trial of Rebecca's Circle of Joy. Community Link is in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated for behind the scenes content and more hsp resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow sensitive strengths on instagram, tiktok and youtube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
