45: Social Justice for Sensitives
With Dorcas Cheng-Tozun, Writer + Editor
Are you burning out trying to make change and fight injustice? In this episode, I talk with Dorcas Cheng-Tozun about sustainable social advocacy and:
• The six roles of social justice work
• Why the extroverted activist ideal isn’t accurate or sustainable
• Pacing yourself and taking time for rest to make more impact in your volunteer or nonprofit work
• Benefits of having diverse personalities and interdependent communities
Dorcas is a writer, editor, communications consultant, and longtime nonprofit professional. She is the author of three books and currently teaches design thinking and social innovation to high school students. A Silicon Valley native, Dorcas has also lived in mainland China, Hong Kong, and Kenya.
Keep in touch with Dorcas:
• Website: http://www.chengtozun.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/chengtozun
• Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/chengtozun
• LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/chengtozun
Resources Mentioned:
• Social Justice for the Sensitive Soul by Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781506483436
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 0:00
I will do what I can when I can, and then I will step back when it is not my time. That's a much healthier, much more humane approach to how to advocate for change.
April Snow: 0:23
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Dorcas Chang-Tosen about the importance of pacing yourself and relying on others when you're highly sensitive, as well as the many ways you can sustainably make an impact on the causes and injustices that you care about most. Impact on the causes and injustices that you care about most without burning out in the process. Dorcas is a writer, editor, communications consultant and longtime non-profit professional. She is the author of three books and currently teaches design thinking and social innovation to high school students. A Silicon Valley native, dorcas has also lived in mainland China, hong Kong and Kenya.
April Snow: 1:28
For more HSP resources and to see behind-the-scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. Hi Dorcas, welcome to the podcast. Thanks, april, so glad to be here. Yeah, same. I'm wondering if we could start off by hearing your HSP discovery story, if you remember how or when you found out that you're a highly sensitive person.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 2:28
Yeah, it was probably almost 10 years ago. At this point I have an older sister. She studied psychology in college and so she does a lot of reading, and she told me one day she said I discovered this personality type called a highly sensitive person. I know I'm highly sensitive and I think you are too, and, as is often the case when our older siblings tell us things, at first I totally disregarded what she said and I'm like I'm sure she's wrong. And then, the more I looked into it, it actually probably was a couple of years before I revisited the idea. And then, of course, I picked up Dr Elaine Aron's book and read Highly Sensitive Person and then realized my sister is right, I am definitely a highly sensitive person. And as I've leaned into that recognition, it's just become more and more clear over time Like, oh yes, this is very much who I am and it actually explains a lot about how I have responded to the world, how I function in relationships, and so it's been really helpful to have that framework.
April Snow: 3:37
It really is, isn't it? I know there's often that resistance at first yes, one could be rebellion or not wanting to accept that about ourselves, I'm curious was there anything specific about sensitivity that you pushed against, that you weren't wanting to accept?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 3:52
Yeah, I think that as a kid, obviously I was highly sensitive and it definitely was not looked upon favorably by my parents and others.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 4:05
Right, it was seen as weakness, as sort of not being able to deal with the world. And I think by that time, you know, I was deep into my professional career. So I had been working in the nonprofit sector for a number of years and was doing work that was not easy and involved a lot of engaging with folks who had different opinions and kind of standing up for my own beliefs, and that was extremely difficult for me, even though I believed so strongly in what I was doing and I wanted to be really good at it. I think there was this sense of if I'm too sensitive, I just can't do this work, and so there was resistance in that regard of I don't want to be this kind of person because I want to be the super strong, you know unflappable leader who can have anything thrown at them and I'm just going to dust myself off and pick myself up and keep on going and it's no big deal. And, yeah, ultimately that's just not who.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 5:04
I was, as much as I wish to be that kind of person.
April Snow: 5:06
I know we do Right. It's so interesting to me that, as sensitive people, we are the ones that are most conscientious, justice minded. We see what's wrong and who needs support and what needs change, but yet we are so impacted and we have limited capacities. So there's that fight of how do I answer that call but then honor my sensitivity. It's such a hard balance.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 5:32
Absolutely. There's very much this push and pull of. I think we are drawn to work that serves others, that makes life better for others, that really speaks to our heart and soul and the hearts and souls of others. We are so sensitive to what is wrong in the world, what is unfair, what is unjust when others are suffering, right. I mean, it is so, so hard to see it, to read about it, to come face to face with it, and I think that's one of the most beautiful things about sensitive individuals is that we see it and we want to do something about it. We want to be there for people who are really going through a hard time and we want to make things right At the same time.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 6:15
Yes, we cannot expect to go into those kinds of spaces without experiencing some sort of pain ourselves, right, whether that be emotional, which can certainly lead to physical pain, as I've experienced as well. And so that, I think, is ultimately why I wrote this book, because it was a question that had been plaguing me for, at that point, almost two decades of my life, ever since finishing college. But this question of how is it that the work that I feel so called to do, that I am so passionate about and means the world to me at the same time, is the work that is causing me so much harm. So I had burned out over and over again, was pretty much on this regular cycle of every two years and over again was pretty much on this regular cycle of every two years, would get burned out and they would successively get worse each successive burnout to the point where, you know, there have been a couple of times where I've just been in bed, unable to function, for months at a time, and I could not understand that, right?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 7:20
Because we are taught and I certainly still believe this, although with some qualifications around it that when we do what we are called to do right, that everything will fall into place, that it'll just feel amazing and we will have everything we need to do what we want to do right. And so it just. It was this conundrum that I could not untangle until it was actually during the pandemic. I went on a long walk because that was all we could do during the pandemic, right? And I was thinking about this question, and then the title of the book just popped into my head and I realized that's ultimately what I have been wrestling with is what does social justice for the sensitive soul look like? And I was thinking well, I can't be the only one that is struggling with this. And so then that's where this book came from.
April Snow: 8:17
Yeah, such a needed book and topic to explore, and you're definitely not the only HSP who's grappling with this, but it often can. It can feel lonely, like, well, everyone, I see what, everyone else doing this and pushing themselves and showing up, and you know why can't I do it? At least, this is just my own personal thoughts and not to speak for you. And so this book comes out and I just want to hold up for anyone watching this on video. Dorka's book has been definitely an anchor for me and I've used it with clients who are grappling with the same questions. You know how do I live my values of social justice and engagement sustainably? It's really hard to do, and I want to just read a quote from the book, because this one stood out to me and just to give folks a little sense. Stood out to me and just give folks a little sense.
April Snow: 9:07
It says one of the greatest opportunities and challenges for sensitive justice advocates is to find meaningful forms of engagement that uniquely fit us. It will probably not look like what most activists are doing, because most activists are not sensitive and empathetic to the same degree. It could very well involve building your own role or charting your own path, one that may or may not be understandable to those around you. And just this last line, which I love, is history is full of social justice heroes who have carved their own niches, operated on their own timelines and spoken up for change through different avenues at different volumes. I love that because I think it speaks to what we need to do as sensitive people in general, which is follow our own path, create it from scratch sometimes. But what could that look like? What have you discovered that social justice could be for an HSP? Because in the book you talk about you could be on the front lines. That's kind of the general image, but what are the other options for us?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 10:08
Yeah, well, I want to add to that first, which is, I think that those are the models that we see most frequently, right, the person who's leading the march, the person who's standing behind the microphone those are the folks who oftentimes get the most attention. They're the ones that are written down in history, which is all well and good. We absolutely do need people like that in every social movement.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 10:24
But I think that is part of what makes it hard right.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 10:27
Those are the individuals who are held up to us as the epitome of what it means to advocate for justice. And yet, as I was doing research for this book, what was so encouraging to me was that behind every one of those individuals right, like every Martin Luther King, behind them are tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands, of individuals who are supporting the very same cause, but in quieter ways that don't necessarily gain as much attention, but are critical right. Nobody would have heard Dr King's message except that he had this entire groundswell of communities, individuals, families behind him, supporting him, promoting the very same message in every little corner that they operated in, and so I think that's been a really helpful reminder for me of you know, movements are not made of individual leaders. Movements are made of so many people across so many different areas of society and industries and professions, and you know, you name it. We need all kinds of personality types, all kinds of gifts contributing to the change that we want to see right. Social challenges are really, really complicated.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 11:52
They're really difficult to move the needle even a bit, and so if we can approach change in a host of creative ways, why not do that right? Why only feel like we have to be protesting or canvassing or you know? There are so many different approaches to what social justice work can look like, so in my book I highlight six different categories of justice work that have historically been very effective. So one of my favorite parts of writing this book was just finding lots of stories of people in history, some more hidden, some less hidden, but stories of people who have engaged in justice work in what we might think of as unconventional ways, when actually this has been going on for decades, if not centuries, and seeing the now, looking back, we can see the impact of their work. It wasn't that they were just going through the motions, that they were just on the sidelines, but the work that they did really, truly mattered and it made a significant impact in the causes that they cared about. And this is certainly not meant to be completely inclusive. This is more about giving us just other ideas, other possibilities to think of, and there may be dozens more that others can come up with, which is wonderful, but the six categories that I focused on were people who are connectors, and so that's individuals who just are very relationally focused, very much about building friendship, building bridges, having respectful, kind conversations with others, underestimate what can happen through one-on-one interactions, that in which we enter into it with genuine empathy and a desire to understand the other person. There is so much personal, interpersonal transformation that can happen through those interactions, and so those are essential to our society moving toward, you know where we would like it to be. So those are essential to our society moving toward, you know where we would like it to be.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 14:07
Secondly, I talk about creatives. So you know, artists of any form. Artists have always been at the heart of social movements. They help express what our greatest hopes are. They help paint, sometimes literally, a vision of where it is that we want to be headed, how our world could be different. And those works of art inspire us, encourage us, unite us. They keep us together, right? You think of the civil rights movement and how central music was to the civil rights movement, right? And there's so many other movements where it's music, it's visual arts, it's dance, it's writing. The work of artists is so essential to wanting to create social change.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 14:53
I talk about record keepers this is a really fun chapter to write People who are librarians, historians, archivists. They help us remember history and document what injustices have happened in the past, how can we right those wrongs, what mistakes have we made that we could do differently in the future. That kind of learning is really, really critical for us thinking about where we want to go, and one interesting thing that I discovered in my research is that oftentimes, when you have authoritarian leaders and governments that come into power, it is not uncommon that among the first people that they will target are historians, archivists, librarians, museums, anywhere where there are the keepers of like. This is our narrative, this is who we are, this is who has had power in the past, this is who's been ignored and oppressed in the past or even currently, and those are the kinds of narratives that authoritarian figures want to squash. They don't want people to have that knowledge and that awareness, and so the work of record keepers is so essential.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 16:06
I talk about builders. So these are engineers, inventors, who are creating technologies that are going to kind of help provide more equity, give people more opportunity. We still are very much in need of new inventions that help, certainly at this point in time, bridge the digital divide, but there's so many other inequities when it comes to technology and access to technology. I talk about equippers, so those are teachers, coaches, mentors, anyone who is kind of building up the next generation, which could be any age, I would say the next generation of leaders and activists. We absolutely need those individuals, because none of us are born knowing how to do social change.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 16:50
We need somebody to teach us and I talk about researchers the importance of academics and scientists who really look deep into what is going on in our world, what is going on in our communities. How can we better understand the challenges before us? What are the root causes? What are the things that can make a difference? We need that data, we need that information so that we can make wise choices about where do we leverage our influence, where do we try to make an impact that can truly kind of ripple out and lead to these larger societal changes that we're really hoping for?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 17:28
So those are just six different possibilities, and even within each of those there's a couple dozen different ways you could approach it. But my hope is just to kind of spark a little bit of that inspiration and creativity within individuals of like. Maybe one of these works for you, maybe it's something else, maybe it's a combination of you know two, three, four of these. I've definitely moved between quite a number of these and I think not only are these great, high impact ways to try to leverage change, but they are also roles that might feel a little bit like a better fit for individuals who are highly sensitive, highly empathic, who want to do something really meaningful, but maybe can't quite be on the front lines or can't quite be, you know, staring suffering in the eyes every single day, but it still gets us very close to action, still makes us central to the work that is being done.
April Snow: 18:25
I mean all these roles are so critical. Action still makes us central to the work that is being done. I mean all these roles are so critical In every system. You need record keepers, you need teachers, you need relationship builders and sensitive people are so gifted at these roles. And I appreciate the reminder that we need diversity. I think there's that extrovert ideal or these other ideals that we uphold in all these parts of our lives, but we need diversity in personality, in race, in gender, and it's not just Martin Luther King at the microphone giving the speech, it's all the people behind him. And I really appreciate that reminder because these roles are equally as important or even more so.
April Snow: 19:08
So I remember in my 20s I was very active. I was trying to push myself into that box Protest, be on the front lines, give speeches, knock on doors for campaigns, and it was such a stretch and I just burnt out. But knowing that the other, well I will say I started realizing then just how important the behind the scenes work was, the long-term work, not just being out there at a rally. That doesn't move the needle that much. It's making the phone calls, it's doing the legwork and I appreciate how you said these are all high impact. They're important. Those are not less than the flashy stereotypical activists that we think of, that archetype, yeah. So I'm wondering let's say, we start to expand our view of social justice and engagement Even still as we step into different roles, how do we keep it sustainable?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 20:03
Yeah, I think that is such a huge question I know it's such a big question.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 20:10
Yes, well, I think part of it is a huge part of it is just like you don't have to be the protester at the front line. You also do not have to be the person who, day in, day out, 24-7, is constantly doing the work right, there is very much this culture and for a long time I thought it was just me. I thought I was like is it just something's wrong with me? But I realized when I was doing research for this book that there's actually a growing body of research. There are these wonderful sociologists and psychologists who are studying the culture of activism and how do activists function, what do they say to each other, how do they interact amongst one another? And there has been now scientifically documented very much this culture of self-sacrifice, of you have to be 100% committed to the cause and anything less is considered unacceptable. There is this kind of almost policing that happens among activists, where anyone who wants to take a little time off, who wants to take a break, who needs a nap, who wants to go on vacation, they are actively shamed for not being dedicated to the cause. But the thing is, we all know this and yet I feel like sometimes we forget that we're not robots, we're very much human and the cost of this culture of you have to like constantly, it's always urgent, it's always now, it's always a priority, and you cannot think about anything. I mean even your own personal health, your own family, right, these are things that are expected to be a distant second to the cause that you're focused on, but the amount of harm that that causes is significant.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 22:13
So the average activist burns out in three to five years and they're done. I mean when I say burnout, they are out of there. It's not that they need a break and they can come back, but the vast majority of activists who burnout completely move on because, well, one, I think they are so exhausted and two, I don't think that they have been shown that there are possibilities for different ways of being engaged, that there are possibilities for different ways of being engaged in activism, that it doesn't have to look like the way that a lot of other people are doing it. And you know there are those few who are going to be able to go at that pace for maybe decades, but I don't think there are that many.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 22:54
I think the majority of us, and for sensitive individuals in particular, this idea of pacing is so critical, right? So, at least for me, I think about you, know. Would I rather give, like my mind, heart, body, soul, for three to five years, burnout, then be done, or would I rather be able to kind of give myself the permission to do some of the hard work, to rest, to do some more of the hard work, right? This very natural flow, it's a very human, it's part of who we are as humans to have this rhythm of engagement and rest, and you'll find that the most grounded people are the people who have found a rhythm for themselves right.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 23:41
It is not 24-7, 365 days a year, but it is. You know, maybe I do it for a few months and I take a break, maybe I do it for a couple of years and I take a break. And so for me, the alternative is that I operate with that kind of rhythm and then I can sustain myself over years, hopefully decades, and that, to me, is so much more meaningful and I think that I can have a much more significant impact on the issues and the people that I care about if I can stretch it out over so many years, as opposed to like just this really brightly burning flame for a few years and then you're just done. And I think that that points to another uh thing, which is that we need activists at all stages of life. Right, I mean the folks who are young and in their 20s high energy, super passionate, very critical, really important. But we also need people who've been around the block a few times and who have a lot of experience, who've've seen a lot of life, who can bring that kind of wisdom and discernment and perspective to our movements as well. Right, that sense of balance.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 24:49
So I think this question of pacing, of rhythm, of honestly just giving ourselves permission of being able to sort of ignore, or at least not give as much credence to, the voices that are telling us that we have to do everything all at once. It's just not possible. We're human, we're limited just one person, you know. And I think that that mentality, what I have found helpful, is this idea that I'm certainly not in this alone, it is certainly not all on my shoulders, right, I think not many of us would want to admit it, but a lot of us who are in this space, maybe subconsciously, unconsciously, operate with the sense of like, if I stop, then everything's just going to fall apart. Right, it's like, it's on me. I got to keep going and I think over time I have come to accept it took me quite a while to get here I come to accept that it's actually not all on me. There's a very small sliver that is on me.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 25:49
But I think part of the beauty of engaging in the kind of rhythm where we do really value rest, we value play, we value relationships and our loved ones ones, that it gives me the opportunity to step back and others to step forward. And it's this beautiful interdependence, it's this wonderful sense of mutual trust, of like okay, like I, just I need a break and I'm going to trust that someone else is going to step in. You know, and that's the way it's always been, right, like movements, any successful social movement has relied on so many people, sometimes across generations. Right Like the women's suffrage movement. Conservatively, you could say, it lasted something like 70, 80 years and it was probably much longer than that, right. So we're talking three, four generations of leaders who stepped up and then who stepped back and allowed others to step in.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 26:46
And I think that that's just. There's something so humanizing, right about all of this of recognizing the limitations in one another and ourselves and yet being able to care for one another in the midst of that, giving each other permission to care for ourselves and those closest to us and trusting that there are others who care about this cause as much as I do, who can do the work as well as I can, and they're going to do it. I will do what I can when I can, and then I will step back when it is not my time, and I think that that's a much healthier, much more humane approach to how to advocate for change than this kind of just relentless, you know, work you to the bone until you're dust and have nothing left to give it. Just yeah, I think we've. It is never a good sign when we have lost compassion, even for one another right and for ourselves, and I think that we are our best versions of ourselves, which is who we want to bring right To any cause, to any movement. We want to bring our best selves, and we can only be our best selves when we have compassion and empathy for ourselves, for our co-laborers, for those closest to us, as well as for others all around the world.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 28:11
And I think that that is part of why sensitive individuals are so important to our movements, because I think that we inherently know that and if we try to live differently, things go pretty badly for us.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 28:28
So we are the individuals who can model what that looks like for ourselves, for those around us, and I do think that our activist movements in general nowadays just sort of need a significant infusion of that compassion and that empathy, even for one another. And what's beautiful about both compassion and empathy is that they are not finite resources, right, and the more we express them, because I think there's this belief of it feels selfish somehow to have compassionate empathy for yourself, but I think that that's assuming somehow to have compassionate empathy for yourself, but I think that that's assuming that if you have it for yourself you can't have it for others. But the reality is that the more compassionate empathy you express toward yourself and those closest to you, the more it multiplies, the more capacity you have to express compassionate empathy for even more people, half to express compassion and empathy for even more people. And so it's this wonderful kind of self-perpetuating cycle that creates, you know, greater and greater beauty around us.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 29:28
And if we forget that, if we kind of forget that starting point, then I think things can kind of start to fall apart in how we interact with others, how we care for others, professionally and personally.
April Snow: 29:40
There's so many profound life lessons in how we approach this work sustainably leaning on community, including our elders as teachers, equippers, taking care of ourselves so we can take care of others, and going at our own pace. You're so right that sensitive people are the ones that kind of the canaries in the coal mine. Yes, we help everyone else stay balanced and regulated and out of danger, but there is that urgency right, like I've got to fix this right now and it's all on me and I appreciate that. You said, if I stop that it's all going to stop, but it's not true. We're interconnected, we're leaning on each other and it's more of a relay race than a sprint and it's a very long race.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 30:24
Keep that in mind.
April Snow: 30:26
Yes, Exactly that's something I've had to realize over the past few decades is the work is never done and, as we're seeing now, we're now returning to work. We thought we did. So we have to really bolster ourselves. Yes, to keep going.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 30:44
Yes, I love the example of Gandhi is one of these rare individuals who, as far as you know everything we can see in his writing and how he talked, he seems like he was a very highly sensitive person and yet somehow he also ended up at the front of a movement.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 30:59
I think that might be a little unusual, but as I was digging deeper into his life I mean this rhythm right that I've been talking about, about engagement and rest it was very much a part of who he was right. So we hear about these big actions that he took. Right, he would, you know, fast, for a very long time, or he would go on these walks for a very long time and marches, but in between, right and these are the quiet moments that we don't hear about as much he would go, do you know one big action and then he would rest for months. He would go back to his ashram and like, just meditate, hang out. It wasn't like he was constantly having meetings and strategizing and you know, hang out. It wasn't like he was constantly having meetings and writing books endlessly, but he was just resting, meditating, recentering himself, regathering himself. He would spend time with loved ones.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 31:53
He might have an occasional meeting here or there, but it really was a retreat for him and it was recovery from what he had just completed and it was preparation for what was to come right.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 32:06
And if we were to map out this is probably not the best way to think of our lives, but maybe a helpful visual, like if we had sort of a pie chart of Gandhi's life right, and I mean the actions that he engaged in, I mean maybe it was like 10% of his time right, and then there was a significant amount of other time that he engaged in. I mean maybe it was like 10% of his time right, and then there was a significant amount of other time that he's doing other things. And yet we look at him as he was so incredibly effective. And I think that a huge part of that and his ability to be so consistent in who he was and what he taught and he led others I think a huge part of that is because he had these long periods of grounding himself, ensuring that he was in a good and healthy place emotionally, spiritually, physically, before he was ready to move on to the next step.
April Snow: 32:58
See, these are the things we don't hear about, right, because we think of Gandhi or other leaders. We think they're always on the front lines, and no, you have to retreat and you have to recharge and gather the energy to go out again. So even if you are an HSB who's more of an active playing, an active part, you have to find that counterbalance.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 33:22
Yes. And not only, I think, is the risk, but there are other risks, Like even I have found that within activist circles there's a lot of anger. Anger is completely understandable. There's a lot in the world to be angry about.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 34:00
No-transcript we don't mean to direct it toward, and there can be this sense of, you know, us versus the world, you versus me, and it makes it harder, I think, to connect with others, to try to see the good in others, even to maintain a sense of hope that, in the midst of all of the hard things going on in this world, if we just see it all through the lens of anger, I think that will ultimately point us toward despair.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 34:31
And when we fall into despair, which I am guilty of, it's paralyzing. And I think to not get stuck in that place, to not inadvertently hurt others without meaning to right, we need to do the work for ourselves, to make sure that we are getting what we need right, whatever sustenance, whatever form that sustenance takes, so that we can be in the world, be a part of these movements and these actions, truly from a spirit of love and compassion and wanting what is good and beautiful for everyone, not just for the people who are just like me, or not just for the people who are standing next to me, but truly right.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 35:14
Dr King talked a lot about the sense of beloved community, which is sort of the ultimate place where we would love to end up. It feels so far away, but within this beloved community it is not one people group versus recognize the humanity in everyone and we can connect with everyone and offer them the dignity and the respect and the honor, even if we don't agree on everything. Right, they're very different from us because it is that kind of coming together, that kind of crossing differences, where I believe true change can happen. If we continue to put up these walls and barriers and draw these really clear dividing lines between my tribe and yours, change is only going to happen within your very small circle until you're able to truly speak, to connect with care for people who are beyond that circle.
April Snow: 36:16
Like you said, those one-to-one connections, those relationships are so important and thinking about how are you coming into relationship? Are you coming in angry and burnt out and tired and resentful? Are you coming in rested and resourced so you can have open conversations and make a positive impact? It's really important. Yeah Well, Dorcas, thank you so much for this conversation. Before we start to wrap up, I just want to see if there's any final message that you'd like to share with the HSPs listening who are wanting to step more into these six roles or beyond doing social justice work.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 36:52
Yeah, I think. One other point I bring up is it's okay to experiment. I had this strange idea in my teens and 20s that I had to know exactly who I was and what I was called to do and what job description perfectly fit that. All kinds of things, very different jobs in different sectors, addressing different causes and I have come to recognize that that's just part of the journey. Is that it's okay to sort of dip your toe in and like I don't know if this organization or this cause is for me. Maybe I'll just volunteer for a couple hours, maybe I'll just have a conversation with someone who's done this work before, maybe I'll take this job. But I'm only going to you know for sure commit for one year and then let's see how it goes right, it is okay to experiment, to try things out, to try things on and to see how they fit you and if something doesn't fit you, then to move on.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 37:53
But I believe that there is no wasted experience, right, that anything you try there will be something really valuable. You learn, even if it's hard, even if you realize this is not what I want to do, but every step that you take moves you a little bit closer to a better understanding of who you are, who your best version of yourself is, what brings you joy, because I think that also was really missing in my work for a very long time. I felt like I could only be doing good work if I was suffering and miserable, you know. And yet I think a huge part of that answer to what sustainability looks like is joy. Huge part of that answer to what sustainability looks like is joy. What does it look like to find joy in the midst of the hard work?
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 38:43
It is absolutely hard work, but there should be something in there that kind of just makes your soul sing, and I think that that is what will help you continue to have hope, continue to move forward and continue to do the work, even when it can be discouraging, even when we take steps backward. So to give yourself a lot of permission to be creative, to try things out, to not feel like you have to do it the way that that other person is doing it, because we need you just the way you are and the particular personality you have, the particular gifts, passions and interests you bring. That's who the world needs, and so I really do hope. It is my greatest hope and I'm very much still on this journey, but it's my greatest hope for fellow HSPs and empaths to really embrace that, to recognize like, hey, this is me and who I am is exactly who the world needs. Just need to find those spaces here and there where I can go and where I can shine for the benefit of others.
April Snow: 39:46
I love it so much Just permission to be yourself, and that there can be room to experiment and try things on and figure it out along the way. I know we tend to want to wait until we're absolutely ready and it's perfect, but we can figure it out on the journey. I love this concept of joy and I'll ask you one last question before we go is could you give me an example, maybe from your own experience or something you've seen? What does that look like? Well, where could joy come from in activist work? Because it does seem so heavy all the time, and I just love hearing this. I'm wondering if you could share a little example.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 40:26
Yeah, Well, I think you probably need joy from a few different sources because of the heaviness of the work. I do think that there is something in us that when we are doing something that just fits exactly who we are right. So I am a creative person. I mean, certainly I love writing and I love other forms of art. But if I can find any sort of creativity within a role that I'm doing right Like maybe I am developing a new marketing campaign, maybe I am building up a new program I just I recently started teaching and I was building a new class and a new curriculum from scratch and that creativity it just felt like I was coming alive, being able to express my creativity in that way right.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 41:18
So part of it is this question of is this work truly a fit for who you are, what you're gifted at, what you just really enjoy, what you really enjoy doing right? And I think that's something really important to know and something really important to prioritize and to chase after. It is absolutely worth it to be in a job or volunteer position where it's something that you really just enjoy doing. And then, secondly, I would say that the joy certainly comes in relationships, and those around us in community Cried a lot in the jobs that I've had and I have laughed uncontrollably with people that I work with, with had, and I have laughed uncontrollably, you know, with people that I work with, with clients, and I think that we all need that right To just remember the sort of ridiculous things in life.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 42:07
Humans are really funny, and so can we find the humor in what is happening around us, and I think that is so good, so good for us, for our souls, for one another, and I think at least for me. You know I'm also an introvert, and so joy for me does come in those times of retreat and withdrawal and rest, where I get to do things that I really love, you know, going out in nature and painting and writing and watching great movies and binging on.
April Snow: 42:42
Netflix occasionally.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 42:43
That's okay, but those, yeah, I think finding those little pockets of joy, ideally, you know, at least every day. It's like that fuel that just keeps going, keeps us remembering who we are, what we bring to the world, and it is ultimately going to keep us healthier and more grounded and allow us to have a more significant impact in whatever we do.
April Snow: 43:09
So we can laugh, we can be joyful, we can rest, we can take breaks.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 43:14
Yes.
April Snow: 43:14
Yes, thank you so much for that. I will make sure I share your books, your website, your social media in the show notes for folks so they can dive in and deepen into this conversation for themselves. So thank you so much, dorcas.
Dorcas Cheng-Tozun: 43:28
Of course, thanks for having me, april. I really enjoyed this Thank you.
April Snow: 43:39
Thanks so much for joining me and Dorcas for today's conversation. What I hope you'll remember is that you don't have to do it all by yourself, and you don't have to do it all today, whether that's taking care of your work and family or fighting social justice causes. For more guidance in sustainably supporting your community and getting involved in social justice work, pick up Dorkus' book Social Justice for the Sensitive Soul. You'll find the link in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSP resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
