39: Finding Your Voice Through Fierce Self-Compassion
With Nadine Pinede, Author
Are you nurturing and advocating for yourself? In this episode, I talk with Nadine Pinede about dimming your inner critic to a whisper and:
• Learning to advocate for yourself when you have an invisible illness and/or are a person of color
• Soothing pain and discomfort through MBSR (Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction) and Self-Compassion practices
• Seeing yourself and others for who they truly are, not the groups they belong to
• Channeling grief and pain into creativity and writing
• Slowing down to see how everything is connected
Nadine is the daughter of Haitian exiles who were forced to leave their homeland because of a dictatorship. Her mother was no doubt sharing enthralling tales of Haitian history and family lore when Nadine was in the womb. Nadine is an author, poet, editor, educator, and translator who created her own interdisciplinary major at Harvard and then continued on to Oxford on a Rhodes Scholarship. She also has an MFA in fiction and poetry and holds a PhD from Indiana University. Nadine’s upcoming debut novel from Candlewick Press, When the Mapou Sings, is dedicated to her first storyteller, her mother, who encouraged her to write her own stories.
Keep in touch with Nadine:
• Website: https://nadinepinede.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nadinepinede
Resources Mentioned:
• When the Mapou Sings by Nadine Pinede: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781536235661
• Mindfulness Based Stress Reduction (MBSR) for Pain: https://www.ummhealth.org/umass-memorial-medical-center/mindfulness-managing-pain-introduction
• Fierce Self-Compassion by Kristin Neff, Ph.D.: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9780062991065
• Their Eyes Were Watching God by Zora Neale Hurston: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9780060838676
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Nadine Pinede: 0:19
And then, when you can or when you feel comfortable enough to the fierce self-compassion, is really standing up and finding your voice and finding ways to perhaps change how we are being heard or not heard, how we're being seen or not seen are not seen.
April Snow: 0:53
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Nadine Paned about using self-compassion to advocate for yourself as an HSP when you have an invisible illness or are a person of color, channeling grief and pain into creativity and writing, and seeing yourself and others for who they truly are, not the groups they belong to. Nadine is the daughter of Haitian exiles who were forced to leave their homeland because of dictatorship. Her mother was no doubt sharing enthralling tales of Haitian history and family lore when Nadine was in the womb. Nadine is an author, poet, editor, educator and translator who created her own interdisciplinary major at Harvard and then continued on to Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship. She also has an MFA in fiction and poetry and holds a PhD from Indiana University. Nadine's upcoming debut novel from Candlewick Press, when the Mapu Sings, is dedicated to her first storyteller, her mother, who encouraged her to write her own stories For more HSP resources and to see behind-the-scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list.
April Snow: 2:28
Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. Okay. So, nadine, could you start off by telling us your HSP discovery story?
Nadine Pinede: 3:11
how or when you realized that you're a highly sensitive person? Oh, that's such a good question and I wish I could pinpoint and say there was a moment. It wasn't a moment, it was reactions by others that told me, especially by my mother. So what would happen is that when we moved from Canada to the US and my parents were born and raised in Haiti, studied in Paris where I was born, and because of the dictatorship, they couldn't return to Haiti, and because of the dictatorship, they couldn't return to Haiti. So we were immigrants in Canada first, and that's where I learned English, and then in the US. So we lived in an area just outside of New York and in Connecticut and at that time there was a lot of blaming of AIDS on Haitians and in fact, the Red Cross did not let Haitians donate blood because of that.
Nadine Pinede: 4:11
So there was a lot of bullying that went on, and my brother handled it through humor that was his way of doing it but I, being the sensitive person that I was, would go home and tell my mother and I'd be very upset. The words would remain with me, the emotions it felt as if it was sinking into the core of my being and my mother would say don't be so sensitive. There are going to be people like that in the world and they are ignorant. And your past and she had taught us all about Haiti and all about Haiti's history. So we felt pride in being Haitian, but being insulted and being mocked and taunted, it stayed with me and it was my mother's reaction that made me realize, oh wait, yeah, it's staying with me, but it doesn't stay with them in the same way. Somehow they're able to shake it off or whatever, and I'm not like that.
Nadine Pinede: 5:12
So I realized I was a little more like my father, who it's hard to be a sensitive man in any culture. But I realized because the way he listened to music, the way he took in a sunset, the way he appreciated beauty, there was a sensitivity to him that he probably had to hide. So I learned about being highly sensitive by having someone tell me that it's not good, about being highly sensitive, by having someone tell me that it's not good. And I think a lot of people have had that experience, at first thinking this is a flaw, and for many years I thought of that as a flaw, until well into living and really having experience and when I started writing poetry, more poetry because I always wrote poetry. But when I really turned to writing poetry I started to see it as my secret superpower.
April Snow: 6:10
Your secret superpower? Yeah, it is true that we often find our sensitivity in relation to others and usually it's in that criticism of the sensitivity or needing to tuck it away, sometimes for safety, right? Yes, that criticism of the sensitivity, or needing to tuck it away, sometimes for safety, right?
Nadine Pinede: 6:25
Yes, right, and I understand that too because, also culturally, I recall an experience where I was working and I was with a group of Haitian farmers and we were helping them get funding for a sustainability project and as I was describing or translating or doing something I was describing or translating or doing something I just started crying and the person said well, you know you're crying, but we're the ones who should be crying. I just thought I am not cut out for this work Because, again, like my mother is an example that I keep bringing up because she did very difficult work with homeless, with children, women who needed help, and she would not cry hearing someone's story. She would be able to hold everything in and find a solution, but I would cry and so I thought, okay, there it is, that sensitivity.
April Snow: 7:20
You had more to hold in right. Yes, yes, yes.
Nadine Pinede: 7:23
That's true. But yeah, I realized that there are certain kinds of work that, even though I think it's great work to do in the world, it's not matched to my temperament, and that was a big thing to discover, and I didn't discover that until my 30s.
April Snow: 7:41
Were you doing work at the time where you realized this is not sustainable? Yeah, exactly.
Nadine Pinede: 7:45
It was that work of. I was helping match grant makers with organizations that were grassroots, that were dedicated to the environment, to sustainability. So I loved the actual work that I was doing, but a lot of it was work where you would find yourself in these situations facing very difficult stories. And also I didn't know at the time that I had several what we could call now invisible disabilities. I didn't know that I had endometriosis, I didn't know that I had fibromyalgia and I didn't know that I had Ehlers-Danlos syndrome. So there was a lot of pain going on and I didn't realize the reasons for it. So, on top of the sensitivity, there were chronic pain conditions.
April Snow: 8:36
Yes, right, and feeling those, I imagine such a deep level and still needing to persevere and all those things. Endodermatosis, ehlers-danlos, fibromyalgia a lot of folks tend to have these invisible illnesses and are suffering greatly. I have seen that. You know how happy.
Nadine Pinede: 8:55
I was that Michelle Obama mentioned menstrual cramps in her speech. It was just yes, thank you for naming things that we usually do not want to name in public or feel ashamed of, and I remember being 13, thinking this is so painful, but when I shared it with my mother she said well, that's normal, it'll get better. You know that kind of thing. I just didn't. It didn't get better. So you know and remain undiagnosed for a long time, and again that's something that happens to many women, but especially women of color.
April Snow: 9:31
Exactly yes, right, suffering and silence.
Nadine Pinede: 9:34
Or if you know the famous Zora Neale Hurston quote if you're in pain but you stay silent, they'll kill you and say you enjoyed it. Yes, yes, that's a very that's a quote. That hits me, you know, because it's so powerful? Yeah, it is powerful and thinking about her life and the example she was. That's something that I've learned not to stay silent, but in the past I would try to be very stoic and I didn't describe what was painful. I internalized it and that probably amplified the pain.
April Snow: 10:11
Absolutely Right. It starts to compound, you don't? Ever get a release, physically or emotionally. So there's a lot that you were holding within yourself, whether was your pain, your emotions, even the strengths of your sensitivity. It's a lot to hold. How did you start to switch into expressing? You know, it sounds like there are some switches that you made. Where you were, you found your voice and you stepped more into what was aligned. How did you start to make that switch?
Nadine Pinede: 10:41
It's interesting. I think I made that switch just from being tired of hearing doctors tell me that. It was all in my head, you know, there came a moment and I remember reading Elaine Skye the philosopher, and she talked about other people's pain being very unreachable to most of us. So when other people are describing pain, we as a whole don't necessarily take that as seriously as our own pain. So I thought I've been to so many doctors. I had a kind of dossier, you say file that was maybe 200 pages of just trying to figure out the mystery of what was going on.
Nadine Pinede: 11:27
But there was a point where I think it was a rheumatologist said something and I said no, I know, it's not all in my head.
Nadine Pinede: 11:35
This is something that maybe you can't help me, but I am going to find a way to deal with this. And it was after several very difficult surgeries to deal with the endometriosis. So, yeah, it was after that that I really read more, I started to understand more about that and also, fibromyalgia made me understand my body more. You know, there's nothing like chronic pain to make you look into and try to understand how it functions, how the mind influences the body. So all of it again it turned me into. You know, I want to learn and from the learning I feel like I have a voice.
April Snow: 12:18
Yes, you find your voice in that. Yes, you have to be your own advocate. Yes, yes, you find your voice in that. Yes, you have to be your own advocate. Yes, especially as a woman, especially as a person of color, especially as a sensitive person who feels differently. Yeah, and you hit a limit, especially with pain. Right, you can't tolerate that for so long.
Nadine Pinede: 12:34
Well, and there are stories that you know. I could go on, but there's just it's the summary of it is when I would go alone to see this particular rheumatologist I'm mentioning because he stands out he would treat me one way and he treated my hairdresser, who was also black, in the same way Very dismissive, very brusque, very abrupt, told her that her lupus was something that she could never cure, that she wouldn't be able to manage. It's just very horrible in his approach. And when my husband came and my husband is Dutch, so my husband accompanied me, he's Dutch and white suddenly the entire demeanor of this rheumatologist changed.
April Snow: 13:20
No surprise.
Nadine Pinede: 13:21
That was all I needed to really feel that outrage and speak up.
April Snow: 13:27
Yes, was it apparent to you Because I'm sure you know you've been treated in similar ways before this doctor, maybe not as obvious, but were you already sensing that he's treating me differently? Or was it a wake up call? Yeah, you already know, I already sensed it. Yeah, yeah, being highly sensitive, yeah, you can sense it.
Nadine Pinede: 13:45
I just immediately sensed it. I sensed that the things I was saying were being dismissed and that he wasn't really listening, that he had made up his mind about me.
April Snow: 13:57
That's it. Isn't it Before hearing?
Nadine Pinede: 13:58
yeah, before fully listening to my story.
April Snow: 14:02
And that was infuriating Well Before fully listening to my story and that was infuriating. Well, right, I mean, he's treating you differently. He's not seeing you, the human, the person in front of him, right yes. I'm curious to know what happens next after you have that appointment where your husband's present.
Nadine Pinede: 14:18
Well, what really happened is that, through a series of decisions to get second opinions, to also work with my OBGYN, who had helped me with the endometriosis, to work with a mindfulness therapist to do mindfulness MBSR I did several sessions of that the eight-week sessions and that already helped me because it helped me approach the pain in a different way. So before I was blaming myself for the pain or I was saying it's something I can't figure out, there's a problem that I'm not figuring out and that compounded it, but just having the mindful and nonjudgmental attitude helped a lot. It really helped me. It didn't make the pain go away, but it made the pain much more manageable, especially on the worst days.
April Snow: 15:21
Yes, yeah, MBSR is great for pain relief or pain management. I should say yes, it helps.
Nadine Pinede: 15:28
It helped me a lot, so that's part of it. You know, just having that, having other tools that you can turn to and, more recently, self-compassion, the work of Christine Neff, exactly.
Nadine Pinede: 15:40
Yes, that has really helped me a lot Because self compassion isn't necessarily a part of mindfulness based stress reduction. It's a small part of it, but what she's done is taken it and really talked about specifically how it can affect women's lives, and she talks about fierce self-compassion and tender self-compassion and the need for both and when you need one and when you need the other. So the more I read about it, I actually did an intensive course with her and with Chris Germer and that was in the Netherlands, and doing that week helped me immensely. It really helped me have the tool of self-compassion. Before the tool was mindfulness and it's still that, but self-compassion added another element that's helped me also as a writer trying to be creative. Yes, I want to.
April Snow: 16:38
there's a few layers here that are coming up. One I want to. There's a few layers here that are coming up. One we haven't talked about fears versus kind self-compassion on the podcast yet. Do you have an example in your own life of how you differentiate those two? Yes, yes, I'd love to hear.
Nadine Pinede: 16:55
So one is is the tender self-compassion would be turning toward the pain and saying so, this is what this pain feels like. So you're acknowledging the pain and really, if you can, locating it within the body and saying so, this is what this pain feels like. So the second step is saying I'm not alone in feeling this kind of pain, I'm not the only person who has felt this At this moment. I'm not alone in this. And the third part of it is saying what can I do? What small step can I take to help comfort myself at this moment with this kind of pain? So that's tender self-compassion, yeah, and she calls that the mother energy, but it can be called many things. And when I think of it in terms of creatives, I think of how Frida Kahlo looked at her pain and was able to transform and metabolize that into paintings that spoke to other people, but she turned toward her pain and really she told the truth about it, if you want. So you need tender self-compassion Just to get through a lot.
Nadine Pinede: 18:20
Sure you need tender self-compassion just to get through a lot. So I would say that's the basic one that I used before even learning about fear self-compassion, because that's something that Professor Neff has just introduced and talked about in her most recent book, so that she calls the mama bear. So she has a graphic and I've used this graphic. So the first is kind of the hugging bear and the second is the bear sort of growling in a protective way and holding the little cubs under her arm and it's a kind of compassion. It's still self-compassion because you're caring for yourself, but what you're also doing is providing, if need be, advocating, standing up and having that extra step, that sometimes it's that extra step, for example, of saying to the rheumatologist well, you know, I noticed that you treat me differently when my husband is around and I'd like to know what that's about. Yeah, that was self-compassion. I would call it fierce self-compassion, even if it's said politely.
Nadine Pinede: 19:38
So there's the tender self-compassion, even if it's said politely. So there's the tender self-compassion that is maybe the first step for a lot of people. And then, when you can or when you feel comfortable enough to the fierce self-compassion is really standing up and finding your voice and finding ways to perhaps change how we are being heard or not heard, how we're being seen or not seen.
April Snow: 20:08
So taking care of self personally, but then also advocating out in the world Absolutely. And at first I was like, oh, how does this connect to writing? But I could see it. I want to hear more about that you know pain is fuel for writing and finding your voice. Yeah, I want to hear more about how this compassion practice fuels your writing.
Nadine Pinede: 20:27
Yes, the self-compassion for any creative activity, but especially for writing, where perfectionism is often your enemy. So the inner critic in many people who write is such a loud voice and it's constant, you know, and if you ever want to finish a book or a long project, it will at some point be devil you, you know, it's just going to be there. And so the self-compassion is a realization that that's part of the creative process, that people face perfectionism and you're not alone in having to face it, but that you can dim that sound, that inner critic, until it's barely a whisper and then continue doing what you're doing. And that's especially important when you're in a difficult project and where you start to doubt the value of it. So, for example, in a novel I could get to the point where I thought, okay, this is great. But when my mother passed away, I had a lot of trouble returning to the writing. And that's where I had to really exercise a lot of self-compassion and say this is what this feels like, this is what the grieving process holds for me.
April Snow: 22:00
And this is how writing is going to help me in this particular journey.
Nadine Pinede: 22:02
Yeah, just kind of unfold into those emotions, but not get caught up in the particulars and it need to be perfect, but just letting yourself be yes, and also letting it go through and move through my body, because that was another part that when grief is that strong as we people who experienced that, it almost felt crippling, like it knots me to my knees, and there were days I could not get out of bed.
April Snow: 22:29
It was very difficult it's a big loss to to process and to groove through.
Nadine Pinede: 22:35
Yes, yeah she inspired my novel. I just wanted to say that I want to hear.
April Snow: 22:41
Yes, so that so you were able. You talked about finding your voice and using the pain as fuel, and it sounds like you did that here as well, with the grieving of your mother not just your physical pain, but your emotional pain, and I would love to hear more about your newest book, when the map, it's my first novel.
Nadine Pinede: 22:59
Yes, when the map. It's my first novel. Yes, when the mapu sings. So you know it's my debut novel. And the funny thing is that you can write a debut novel at any age. Some people think, oh, you have to be in your 20s to be a debut novelist. No, you have something to say at any age.
Nadine Pinede: 23:17
But the process of writing a novel is one that you learn as you write and you change as a person as you're writing the novel. So it's almost like the novel is teaching you how to be in the world, and that's the magical part of it, the part of it that I didn't expect. So I expected it to be difficult. I thought, okay, I'm trying to carry this story, and I'm trying to. It's in poems, by the way, so it's a novel in verse. So it wasn't difficult enough for it to be a novel. I have to make it in poems. You know that added challenge. I loved it, but then, as I was getting into it, I was like what am I doing? This is you know why did I think this was a good idea, and the more I did it, the more, especially during revision, I noticed that the novel was teaching me, and that is a wonderful moment in any HSP, any person doing creative work, when your work is teaching you something that's so beautiful.
April Snow: 24:23
Yeah, it's just kind of this cycle of feeding each other. You're feeding the novel the novel's feeding you. Yes, it is. Writing is a teacher, that's a good way to put it.
Nadine Pinede: 24:32
Yeah, yes, the nurturing. You know you're nurturing this. I see it as a plant. I mean, there are lots of metaphors you can use, but when I didn't nurture my plant it was kind of saggy, but it was still there. It was like give me a little bit of water and I'll be fine. And so I was able to return and nurture and then just that, back and forth, I started to see things differently and I also started to appreciate the quality of patience and the quality of stamina. But the self-compassion came back as a tool and in every way, as you're finishing a big project, you have to exercise. Or maybe it's unconscious, but self-compassion will help you get that project finished.
April Snow: 25:20
Absolutely. It really kind of softens those perfectionistic tendencies, and that's it.
Nadine Pinede: 25:27
And not just that, it's the perfectionist tendencies. But then the inner critic becomes sort of anticipatory criticism.
April Snow: 25:36
Do you know what I?
Nadine Pinede: 25:36
mean People are going to hate this. They're going to think this book is, you know, too long and boring, like all those voices were in my head as I approached the end of the novel. But I just thought, okay, I'm sure other people have thought this. This is not the first time that this is going to happen. It won't be the last time, but this is a story I feel only I can write, and I'm going to keep writing it until I finish it.
April Snow: 26:05
Yeah, it's such a big hurdle to get through of anticipating that criticism and then softening it right Bringing that universal human experience. Everyone goes through this when they create something put out in the world Absolutely.
Nadine Pinede: 26:18
And if you don't, then either people are lying to you. You know they're very powerful and they're lying to you, right, exactly.
April Snow: 26:28
But yes, could you share a little bit more about the story that unfolded in this book?
Nadine Pinede: 26:34
Yes, so the story is really based on three sources, and the first would be the stories that my mother shared with me about my great-grandmother, and she lived during the American occupation of Haiti.
Nadine Pinede: 26:51
That was from 1915 to 1934. So my mother's stories of my great-grandmother were just incredible stories of a woman who was independent and dynamic and wanted to do things her way and way ahead of her time and the trouble sometimes she would get into, but also how she would get out of that kind of trouble. So it was the good trouble that Tron Lewis spoke about. So that was one source. The second source was a mystery about Zora Neale Hurston herself, because when she went to Haiti, all of her fieldwork the notebooks where anthropologists record their work those don't exist for her time in Haiti. No one knows where they are. We don't know if they were destroyed after her death because some papers you know were missing from her house. She was in a rental, someone was moving things, someone was starting to burn papers and a neighbor came by and said no, you can't do that. You know, the person who lived here was a writer and took those papers and salvaged them. So if someone knows where Zora's notebook from Haiti is, please let me know.
Nadine Pinede: 28:10
But I looked and I contacted biographers, specialists, everyone. No one had the answer. So what I had was a handful of letters from Zora, especially to the Guggenheim Foundation, because she had a fellowship and they were sponsoring went to Haiti in the fall of 1936. And that's the setting, a lot of the setting for my novel. But there's Lucille's life before that. But Lucille goes to work for Zora Neale Hurston. So the mystery of what happened to Zora was another source for this novel. I wanted to know because when a gap exists, the imagination wants to fill it.
April Snow: 29:04
Absolutely, and it does.
Nadine Pinede: 29:07
The third source was my firsthand experience with activists in Haiti, so especially one who was later awarded the Goldman Environmental Prize for his work on behalf of small farmers and against the kind of land grab and the kind of subsidized imports that were hurting people who were trying to really just find dignified ways of making their way in the world, and he stood up to the forces that were against that.
Nadine Pinede: 29:47
So I had the honor of watching his work and going to the 30th anniversary of the Papai Peasant Movement, which is the name of the group that he led, and in that time watching him, I thought what I saw would come out in nonfiction.
Nadine Pinede: 30:08
So I did write an essay about this, but then I started to realize, no, I'm also interested in Zora's time and no one knows anything about that. And Zora mentioned in her epigraph to her book on Haiti that there was a Haitian woman named Lucille who helped her and who she loved and who was a dear friend. And I thought, okay, I want to know about Lucille. I couldn't find anything on Lucille, there was no information. So the real Lucille became sort of an inspiration, because nothing is documented about her life, and I thought of my great-grandmother and I thought of her being Lucille and that's how it came apart, that's how the book came together and, of course, with the qualities of this activist and others who also worked and who were behind the scenes, because not everyone you know, obviously, is leading. They were in the back and they would make these salads that were beautiful and elaborate and the salad would have a peace sign made out of beets or something there would be some visual element to the salad.
Nadine Pinede: 31:30
So I wanted to go back and find the person doing this and say thank you for doing this. And I couldn't find her. And it was the same thing, you know I couldn't find her. And it was the same thing, you know I couldn't find any information about Lucille. I couldn't find what happened to Zora in this time, and I was finding myself dedicated to sort of imagining what these lost or untold stories would be. And that's how it came about, really.
April Snow: 31:57
It's so beautiful that you're able to weave these pieces together based on your own roots. You're of your great-grandmother and then these other figures who were doing a really important work in Haiti. But yes sadly, but not surprisingly, their stories, their, their writing, their materials have been lost. It's yes, yes, and you're at least imagine what their lives could have been or what their stories could have been, to preserve their name.
Nadine Pinede: 32:23
Absolutely. And the key to that is to realize that Zora Neale Hurston is very well known for her writing and she wrote their Eyes Were Watching God when she was in Haiti. So she wrote her masterpiece in Haiti Haiti. So she wrote her masterpiece in Haiti. She started her memoir in Haiti and she wrote a beautiful hybrid book about anthropology, but from a completely different point of view. In Haiti she started all of that, so it was one of her most creative periods in her life, partly because she had a fellowship. So you know Virginia Woolf's Room of One's Own. She had that. Plus she had Lucille helping her. So in my mind, I thought of Lucille as more than a domestic. Lucille became a friend and Lucille was almost helping. And in the research, she was helping Zora navigate some pretty dangerous situations. So that's how I imagined it and there's no way of testing that because we don't have that information, but it just got me started and kept me going.
Nadine Pinede: 33:36
It sounds like it was a big source of inspiration for you to imagine her contributions, Because I'm sure there were many as many women who work in those roles Exactly, and it's like saying thank you to a young woman who made something beautiful for a salad for a group of people and not being able to find that person. My mother's stories of my great-grandmother. I thought she was a market woman and she created beautiful things. Sometimes they were little dresses, sometimes they were carvings, so she would sell her own things that she created. So my Lucille is a carver and that's her way of expressing her creativity, and I also imagined her as an HSP, though I don't say that she, to me, has that quality.
April Snow: 34:29
I was thinking that because she's finding these subtle but powerful ways to express her voice and her message. I mean, it's such a reminder for us, even present day day, to how can we find those ways to express and advocate and I think too in creating fiction.
Nadine Pinede: 34:49
So, because this is not autobiographical, a lot of people, when they write the first novel, it's autobiographical, so everyone says, ah, did this really happen to you? And which part is true, which, which part is not? In creating this character, what I did was take the connection she has to the natural world and the sensitivity she has to it, and turn it into a situation where she can hear the Mapu tree, which is the tree that's on the cover of the book, and it's a sacred tree within Haitian culture, and she can hear it singing, so that there is this connection to the natural world that is much closer than most people would have. And then she also has dreams that are sometimes prescient. So some people would say, okay, that is magical realism. Other people would say, no, that's just someone who is connected to her own highly attuned awareness of the world, paying attention, no-transcript, but also a warrior, an enchanted character. At the same time, she's an eco-feminist warrior.
April Snow: 36:16
She's so powerful in how she shows up and how she supports Zora. But yeah, there's all these subtle layers of sensitivity, connection to the natural world, her dream life, her attunements. Yes and the carving, the carving and just that warrior right.
Nadine Pinede: 36:31
Thank you that focus on justice, yes, in a non-obvious way though, yes that's absolutely true, and also because I see this novel as being about different kinds of love. It's the love of the tree, the love of the memory of a mother she never knew but feels through the tree. You know, the mother tree, if you want. There's the love of other parts of the natural world. There's a love of the father and daughter, of carving, as an expressive form of her best friend Fafina, of learning, of the teaching that goes on through Sister Gilbert. There's the love of you know the first love, the romantic love of Orest. And there's the love of independence, of wanting to be able to be in the marketplace and have her work sold there and have independence for money. There's the love, even between her and Zora, that develops. It didn't start that way. It starts with mistrust, but in the.
Nadine Pinede: 37:37
You know I don't want to spoiler alert, I don't want to give the ending away but you know, it's a book about different kinds of love and in the end, of course, it's the love we have for each other when we don't treat each other as others and when we imagine each other's inner lives and take the time to really see and hear each other yeah, it sounds like such a beautiful unfolding and building to trust.
April Snow: 38:05
And then how the relationship I mean I imagine, yes, filters out to others and makes a big imprint. Yes, it still is yeah, it starts.
Nadine Pinede: 38:15
I mean, the point, too, that I wanted to make was that it starts with the othering, it really does the other. You know, the american is there and the american represents the occupiers. So even though zora is a black woman, she is still from the United.
Nadine Pinede: 38:33
States and Lucille has and is told by other people okay, this is what Americans are and just don't trust them. And Zora's coming in and thinking, okay, is Lucille someone who's going to help me, or is she actually perhaps spying on me for people who don't want me to do this kind of research? So there's a lot of intrigue in that, but it's based on the othering that's immediate, from being fed certain information and lies about people that we may meet and confront.
April Snow: 39:09
It's true. Would it be safe to say they're othering each other? Then Absolutely yes, yes, yes.
Nadine Pinede: 39:16
It's funny to you know the word. When I first heard othering, I thought, well, I don't know if I like that, but then I thought I understand it completely, so I'm going to use it, you know. But it's a perfectly well-used verb when it describes that process where you refuse to accord someone else the same kind of you know, whether it's sensitivity, whether it's imagination, art, love, rich inner life, dreams, whatever it is you refuse to accord that individual the same thing that you yourself are experiencing.
April Snow: 39:55
Right and put them in a box and really miss the essence of who they are as an individual. Deny the essence. Deny that there is yes.
Nadine Pinede: 40:03
That's the most extreme form, is when you deny that there is even an individual and it's simply a group. It's almost like a faceless group, and that can happen very easily oh, very easily.
April Snow: 40:18
Yeah, yes, instantly. And so then these two women, they get to really know each other and yes and go through things, but, yes, don't want to give away the end.
Nadine Pinede: 40:30
That's right, right we?
April Snow: 40:31
want folks to read. I, I can't wait to read this book. Oh good, I know it's not my story, but there's things that you're saying that I can relate to so deeply and I think a lot of sensitive folks will.
Nadine Pinede: 40:41
Whether whatever the background is, absolutely.
April Snow: 40:46
And I can tell this is clearly deeply personal to you and sounds like part of finding your own voice is telling the story.
Nadine Pinede: 40:54
Absolutely. And also finding my own voice and finding, because I did so much research, that there was a point where I had to say to myself it's okay to unshackle yourself from the facts. You know, this is not history.
April Snow: 41:11
You are not trying to write.
Nadine Pinede: 41:13
You can let yourself go. And when I started to do that, I enjoyed the process so much more and I like using elements from all the senses when I write, but I felt like I could fill in so much more the scent of something, the taste of something, how something feels, and that became very important to the poems that make up this novel. So someone said to me there is a lot of food in there. I said, good, and you notice it, yes, or you smell something. I want you to feel that you are inhabiting the world fully and all your senses are involved.
April Snow: 41:55
And we wouldn't think about a book being a fully sensory experience. But you're actually it could evoke all of those pieces. I love it.
Nadine Pinede: 42:04
That's what you try, that's what I try to do. So I hope in some. You know, if I manage in a few poems to do that, I'll pat myself on the back as you're writing the poem, and for any poet, the struggle is to find that balance between finding the right words. But it's a novel, so you're also keeping the story moving forward. So these two things are intention. One is slow down and find that right word and let someone savor it, and the next is make someone want to read the next poem so that they find out okay what's going on Keeping that movement.
Nadine Pinede: 42:45
So it was a challenge. I enjoyed it, but that it's not easy to do.
April Snow: 42:51
Not easy at all, but I can tell you put so much care into the reader's experience and helping them kind of go on the journey with you, well, yeah, thank you, that's what I I felt, and you know, in the same way, that my mother was a great storyteller.
Nadine Pinede: 43:07
she was my first and best storyteller. What I would try to do is imagine the way that she, especially in certain poems, the way that she would tell this, and it just would. It flowed from there. Sometimes, you know, sometimes it didn't, but sometimes it did.
April Snow: 43:28
I appreciate how your mother is the through line in our conversation today. Yes, she is it line in our conversation today. Yes, she is. It's really beautiful.
Nadine Pinede: 43:35
Yeah, yeah, it's very powerful and dedicating the novel to her, especially because she so believed in me and my ability to do it. And there were years that I just couldn't turn to the novel because of health things especially, but also other, you know, just financial reasons. But she always believed that I would do it and that I could do it. And my father too both of my parents, but in this case, because it's mainly my mother's stories yes, yeah, you've carried them on.
April Snow: 44:13
It's really good. Yeah, yeah. Well, nadine, before we wrap up, I'm wondering if there's a message you could leave our HSB listeners with. What would that be?
Nadine Pinede: 44:24
Absolutely. It comes from a poet. Her name is Jane Hirschfeld. I don't know if you know her work. Her name is Jane Hirschfeld. I don't know if you know her work.
Nadine Pinede: 44:59
She's, I guess, studied as a Buddhist which just writes the most amazing poetry and I had the good fortune to be in a workshop with her and the first thing she told us we thought she was going to talk about some technical aspect of poetry, and no, she told us to slow down, pay attention and see how everything is connected, and I love that. So, especially in moments of pain or fear and overwhelm that can happen. I try to remember those words and that would be the advice, if you know, if we can call that advice, I guess. Yeah, but sharing those words and then also practice self-compassion, yes absolutely.
Nadine Pinede: 45:27
Learn about it, practice it.
April Snow: 45:30
I think it's such an essential practice for every sensitive person for every human, really, yes, yes, but even more so. Yeah, for us sensitives.
Nadine Pinede: 45:39
Yes.
April Snow: 45:40
And I think we are so suited to that. We absolutely need to slow down as sensitive people. But yeah, we are so gifted at seeing the interconnection of life and everything in it. Yes, let's take a moment, but then the people pleasing, you know, can come out too.
Nadine Pinede: 45:55
It's in the way, can get in the way, and then the perfectionism and people pleasing are often closely related. I've noticed that I'll speak for myself in that, so that was something else that I had to let go and say this won't please everyone. This is a story that some people won't feel is of interest to them, and that's okay. That's okay. It's as if I had a restaurant and I have 10 tables, and if you don't like my cooking, that's all right, it's okay.
April Snow: 46:23
There are a lot of other restaurants.
Nadine Pinede: 46:25
There are other places. I understand we have different tastes. It's fine, exactly, but that took a while to get there.
April Snow: 46:33
It does. It's definitely a process, yeah, but when you allow yourself to be who you are, you get to write books like when the Map is Seeing. So this deeply immersive story that's going to be really impactful for the right person, oh thank you and I think for a lot of sensitive people.
Nadine Pinede: 46:49
Yeah, I hope so, because it's it helped me. It actually helped me become the kind of person who could finish that novel. Yes, and yeah.
April Snow: 47:01
And here you are, on the other side.
Nadine Pinede: 47:03
The other side. There's a lot to do on the other side. I didn't know that, but there is there's more. Well.
April Snow: 47:13
Nadine, thank you so much for this beautiful conversation.
Nadine Pinede: 47:16
I really appreciate everything that you share with us and letting us into your writing journey and into your life story a bit and I will definitely be sharing your book and your other resources for folks and thank you for what you're doing and for your podcast and for just creating space and creating ways that we feel more empowered.
April Snow: 47:41
It's really important.
Nadine Pinede: 47:42
Thank you.
April Snow: 47:43
Thank you so much. Thanks so much for joining me and Nadine for today's conversation. What I hope you'll remember is how important it is to slow down and nurture what's most important to you, to find your voice and to tell your story. You can find Nadine's new book when the Mapu Sings at the link in the show notes or wherever you find your books. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSP resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
