19: Embracing the Soft Life as a Sensitive Perfectionist
With Noni Vaughn-Pollard, NDTR, MHC-LP
Have you hidden away your sensitivity because others said you needed to be strong? In this episode, I talk with Noni Vaughn-Pollard, about the cost of perfectionism and…
• Setting down the pressure to be like everyone else and embracing the soft, quiet life
• Stepping back from the pressure to be exceptional as a highly sensitive person of color
• Honoring family and cultural values without disregarding your sensitivity
• Seeing perfectionism as a form of self-betrayal and understanding the value of accepting yourself as you are instead
• Using tarot cards as a resource to connect back to yourself and access intuitive messages
• Unhooking from perfectionism through breathwork and vulnerability practices
Noni is a Mental Health Counselor & Registered Nutritionist in New York. She has experience working with adolescents and young adults of color who live with intense anxiety and struggle with releasing perfectionism. She practices with a person-centered, creative and spiritual approach to guide clients.
Keep in touch with Noni:
• Website: https://www.rootsarttherapy.nyc/noni
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/afroandappetite
Resources Mentioned: Open Mindfulness App: https://o-p-e-n.com
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 0:00
There's so many messages that come through and it's really easy to just keep going with that, to go with this really high, intense level of movement, and how do we slow down and how do we really listen to what actually are the messages we do want to receive, as they feel like we need reasoning?
April Snow: 0:28
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Noni Vaughn-Pollard about embracing the soft life and unhooking from cultural expectations to always be strong, social or excellent. We also talked about the importance of honoring your sensitivity as a Black, indigenous or person of color, how perfectionism can be a betrayal of yourself, and practices to welcome vulnerability and reconnect with your sensitive self. We even did a tarot card pull at the end, since that is one of Noni's favorite resources, which I thought was just a really special way to honor this conversation. Noni is a mental health counselor and registered nutritionist in New York. She has experience working with adolescents and young adults of color who live with intense anxiety and struggle with releasing perfectionism. She practices with a person-centered, creative and spiritual approach to guide clients For more HSP resources and to see behind-the-scenes video from the podcast.
April Snow: 1:54
Join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. Can you start off by telling me your HSP discovery story? How and when did you realize that you're highly sensitive?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 2:43
I didn't actually realize I was highly sensitive until I was like in my early mid twenties. I always knew I was a little different. I think that's probably the theme you're hearing with a lot of therapists on this on your podcast is that we all kind of know like internally something is different. But I think, because I got so many messages that being sensitive was not a great trait that I would really try to not embrace that part of myself. So when I got to my early 20s and I started seeing a therapist, she immediately said in the intake session that I might be an HSP. And I was like, what is anSP? And I've never heard of that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 3:24
And I started doing a lot of digging and I realized, oh yes, this is me to the T, everything that this tree is like, I identify with it so strongly. Yeah, and it was actually really liberating to get that label because for a long time I just thought there was something wrong and I needed to fix it and change it and I didn't know how to do that. So I felt like it was a curse to be this sensitive but to be with someone and a therapist to say, no, it's just who you are, and to help me figure out how to practice self-care as a highly sensitive person. To change everything for me is amazing, it's true.
April Snow: 4:01
We usually know right. Something is different in me, and even before you have the language for it, what's there in certain ways? But yeah, there's that inclination at first to push it away.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 4:12
Yeah.
April Snow: 4:13
Something's wrong. I need to be like everyone else. At least that's been my narrative. But yeah, how exciting to have someone celebrate it to at least make it neutral. This is just who you are. It to at least make it neutral. This is just who you are. It sounds like you embrace. I think you use the word embrace, but just accepted it right away as soon as that those words came into your awareness. Oh, I'm highly sensitive. It seems like it switched it pretty quickly for you.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 4:37
Yeah, I think, cause it was the first time really in my life that somebody said it without so much judgment. It was just like, very matter of fact you're probably an HSP just from the way I was talking to my therapist when I first met her five years ago and it was like, oh wow, this is the first time for a while someone didn't say, oh, that's something you might have to work on or change. That was always. The message I got was that it was something that needed to be changed. And when she said it in this very like warm, embracing way of this is who you are, it was just yeah, it was liberating, it was very validating because it finally felt like someone actually understood me. And I think I felt so misunderstood for so long of I don't know how to change this and everybody's telling me why can't you be different? And I was like I don't know how to do that. And so my therapist saying, but you don't have to change it. It was like, oh wow, I never heard that before.
April Snow: 5:37
Yeah, this is who you are. I love that. You don't have to change it. I love that you don't have to change it's true. We need that one person to give us that permission. This isn't a problem. This isn't a liability, it's not a weakness. It's just who you are and there's actually a lot of benefits to it if we can look at the full picture. I think a lot of us have had that experience where sensitivity is it's made to seem like a negative. Oh, you just need to get rid of it. But we can't. It's who we are. It's how we were born, Right?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 6:09
Yeah, yeah, it always was like a message for me that I got was that it was like a liability in a way, and I think because, especially in my family, I was always reminded I was a black girl that the world was already not going to be very accepting that if I also was really sensitive, it was just going to make everything so much more complicated. So I thought, oh my gosh, I really shouldn't make this journey harder for myself. I need to toughen up so people take me seriously. And I could just not ever figure that out. I didn't know how to toughen up at all.
April Snow: 6:44
Right, how do I put on that armor? Yeah, so how has being a highly sensitive person of color impacted your relationship to your sensitivity over the years?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 6:58
Yeah, it wasn't identified as a strength and I do remember people around me being worried about me that I would cry really easily, that I was always anxious. I was very overwhelmed with feedback and very sensitive because we're always put in this box of having to be very tough or very like strong, strong black woman, also very adultified too as black girls.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 7:33
you're black, you're a girl. You should be able to handle more than other people. So there was a lot of pressure for me to keep up with that image of I can do everything myself, I can take care of everyone, and I always just found that so overwhelming. I didn't know how to always do that. I liked being by myself a lot when I was a kid I loved drawing in my room and just watching movies.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 7:58
I liked the soft life, but it wasn't always validated because sometimes I was told I was antisocial. What's wrong with you? How come you're not like other people? Your your age, and that was really hard because I just felt I don't feel like I fit a stereotype, so who else am I supposed to be as a black girl?
April Snow: 8:15
yeah, it's hard. These different parts of you are in battle with each other and there's all these expectations and I would think you're like I love the soft life, I same. But then how do you protect yourself when you are a person of color? How do you grow? I'm just wondering how. I don't have that lived experience, but I'm just wondering how do you hold both?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 8:35
yeah, actually, when you say that that's the show, that's your great question, I think that was also like what I was told is like you can't, like you can't be soft and be black and a girl or a woman, you got to pick like which which, I guess, part you're going to be or which part you're going to play, and I think it's a very confusing message as a kid to feel like you have to choose something that's not authentic to who you are. And I had to push against all of this negative feedback, this worry that things were just going to be really hard for me and I think that's actually where, like my own perfectionism started kicking in was like I really need to show how structured I am. I have to prove to people I can keep myself together, that I'm not this like very fragile being, so it really activated a lot of that need to prove something to people.
April Snow: 9:31
Hey, you said I have to play this part, so I have to put my own self aside to well meet other people's expectations, but also to potentially survive. And would you say there is room for softness. Have you been able to embrace softness and be more authentic with yourself?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 9:52
Yeah, it's taken a long time, a lot of learning and unlearning, a lot of self-compassion too, and I do feel like I'm at a point in my life where I can embrace so many parts of myself and I don't have to sacrifice a part in order to get ahead of my career or relationship or any situation in my life.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 10:17
The best way I could live the happiest life for myself is if I embraced how sensitive I was, because that was just a part of myself I could never change and I shouldn't have to change it to be able to live a fulfilling life. That's right.
April Snow: 10:37
You shouldn't have to change it. There's room for all our different parts to show up.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 10:43
Yeah.
April Snow: 10:44
Yeah, yeah. I want to talk about, if we expand out this vision from self to family, to culture what are ways that Black Indigenous people of color can honor their sensitivity, but also their cultural values, their family values. How can you honor both at the same time?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 11:03
Yeah, I think that's a great question because I work with a lot of clients of color who don't identify with being highly sensitive, but know that they're very emotional and that they're following a lot of family, cultural expectations or values that sometimes they don't agree with or that don't feel fit the type of lifestyle that they would like to create for themselves. So it's hard, because I can empathize with that journey of how do I follow my sensitivity and still stay connected to my community as a Black person or a person of color, because sometimes it can feel especially in my experience like a sense of betrayal of this is what people in my family or my culture, my community, this is what we've all done, and if I do something different, is
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 11:54
that not respectful? Is that not showing gratitude to people of my past and I've heard a lot of clients say that it brings up a lot of grief to maybe switch how you identify as a person of color instead of following what everyone else has told you is what you should do? And yeah, it's a real duality you have to sit with. It's just I want to show up differently in my family and my community and sometimes people don't understand that or they don't feel that you respect the sacrifices they've made to get you to this point in your life. So it's I think it's sitting with. You can still be part of a community of color and show up differently, if you feel like that's what's going to help you the best as a person finding your own version of being a person of color and being sensitive, or even just in general right, finding your individuality in that community.
April Snow: 12:53
You mentioned honoring the people in the past. Are you referring to ancestors or people from your own life?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 13:00
and you said that, yeah, probably like a combination of that like ancestors, more direct lineage of just like pretty grandparents or great grandparents and I think even as I'm sitting with that, I'm realizing like I was never told if anybody in my past generation in my family were sensitive. I don't know who else is sensitive in my family, so it's not something that I feel like I was told. It was something that was passed down to me. It was always like you're different, You're just a different kind of person. But when I really sit with it it's no, it was, probably was something my ancestors experienced too. But because I wasn't really told that, I think to myself everybody was like really tough skinned and was able to handle a lot of trauma. But maybe that's not true. Maybe that's not actually the full story of my people and that sensitivity is a really amazing gift to have, even in times of struggle and immense stress. But it's not the story I was told growing up and I'm imagining for my clients of color that's also not the stories they're told either.
April Snow: 14:09
It's true that sensitive lineage gets erased, so then we don't necessarily have any roots or anywhere to look to for mentorship, for role modeling, to find a way. But you're right that sensitivity is actually. There's a lot of resilience there. But you're right that sensitivity is actually. There's a lot of resilience there. There's a lot of strength and internal resourcing that we can bring to traumatic situations. Yeah, I imagine there were quite a few sensitive people and just what we know biologically speaking 20 to 30 percent of all people being sensitive. I imagine it was there. It just had to get buried.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 14:44
Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense to me that it was there. It just had to get buried, yeah. Yeah. That makes so much sense to me that it was buried in order to survive. You're already trying to survive just from the outside of what you look like, but internally, having to bury that part of yourself as well, and yeah, it's just. There's so much healing that happens when you can feel that you don't have to hide who you really are. It's not. There's so much healing that happens when you can feel that you don't have to hide who you really are. Like. It's not always, obviously, a safe thing to be yourself in environments where you don't feel safe, but it's, for me, been very validating to feel like I don't have to hide who I am, and even if there are people that don't think it's appropriate, it's okay. That doesn't mean that I did something wrong. It's just we're not a good fit for each other.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 15:30
So it's very healing to be able to just be yourself and not worry that you have to hide parts of yourself just to survive in your life.
April Snow: 15:39
Yeah, how healing to know I can let this part of myself into. I can be strong when needed, but also I can be soft and sensitive and let those parts out as well. I'm curious within your own family it sounds like there's been some acceptance of your softness, of your sensitivity over the years.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 15:57
Yeah, I think because people just embrace it, it's not going to change.
April Snow: 16:01
I'm wondering for clients. So when you're working with clients who maybe don't have the language, there's not as much permission. How can we be in relationship with sensitivity if it's not accepted in community and family? Do you have a sense of what to do with that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 16:19
I've been learning a theory called radically open dialectical behavior therapy and it was introduced to me through my current supervisor right now. But it's about dismantling this idea that you have to be perfect all the time, and I've noticed for a lot of my clients of color, perfectionism is a way to hide sensitivity, to show people that you can meet their expectations. You can handle really hard things. You can be in very exhausting relationships with people and not need to set boundaries. So it's about showing the vulnerability of who you are. It's about not letting perfectionism run the show of what kind of life you're supposed to have, but being more authentic and being more open about who you truly are in order to find more authentic connections.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 17:08
So I talk to people about that theory to help them understand that perfectionism is a coping mechanism for a lot of the stress that we go through as people, and that's really confusing for a lot of people to not buy into perfectionism anymore, because it's so praised in our society to be hardworking, to be high achieving, to be someone who never says no to things. It's something that we're rewarded for, and if you're a person of color and you're rewarded for that and you get praised for it, it's okay, then I need to keep being like this so I can be seen. So it's always jarring for clients when I'm saying you don't have to be a perfect person because they're like.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 17:51
If I'm not, then people are going to reject me. People won't like me. What am I going to do if I'm not perfect?
April Snow: 17:59
Yeah, it's true that perfectionism becomes our shield, right? So if I'm just meeting everyone else's expectations, I'll be okay. And then a theme that comes up a lot in my clients that are people of color is there's a deep safety in that? Okay, if I'm just accepted, then I won't ruffle any feathers and maybe I won't get the attention and I'll just be able to slip into the background and I'll hopefully go unnoticed and be okay. But then we have to. There's such a loss there, right, loss of self, loss of authenticity, expression of aliveness. There's just, yeah, but it can be a deeply rooted protection. Could you speak to a little bit more to how perfectionism has showed up in your own life?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 18:48
I think what you had said about it being a shield is definitely how I used it when I was a kid, because I wanted to fit in with other kids around me growing up and other kids, especially when I hit my teen years.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 19:03
I was always around kids that wanted to go out and be social and do some risk-taking activities. I felt very uncool because I was like I don't really see the joy or fun in any of this. It just didn't resonate with me. But I thought, okay, but the only way I can be accepted into my social circle was to just act like everybody else. So I was really going against who I actually was as a person and it didn't make me happy. But I thought if this is what society thinks is appropriate for someone like me, then I need to act like that. But it just caused a lot of unhappiness putting on the wrong size of pants for your body and it's painful. This is not comfortable. But if it's going to make me look good, then maybe I should just suck it up and try it, but it's not really worth it.
April Snow: 20:00
It's not worth it, is it you said?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 20:01
this is what is expected for people like me.
April Snow: 20:02
you said this is what is expected for people like me. What did you mean when you said that?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 20:08
I think I meant because I was really young. I'm still young. But when I was in high school I thought, okay, all teens are supposed to be extroverts and are supposed to want to be dating or supposed to want to try drugs, and I was like I don't really want to do that, but I thought not that I did all of that stuff. But I tried to pretend that, yeah, I was like I don't really want to do that, but I thought not that I did all of that stuff. But I tried to pretend that, yeah, I was like really interested in all of that and I knew in the back of my head I'm like lying, I don't want to do any of this. Yeah, I just it was really confusing. It was confusing being younger and thinking I needed to fit a mold of youth that was very acceptable in especially American culture.
April Snow: 20:50
And.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 20:50
I just didn't find it enjoyable at all, but it was always like I would get like people making jokes like oh you do this and it's really weird that you like that, and I didn't want to feel like the oddball, so I would just not talk about things.
April Snow: 21:04
Yeah, is that when we're different? It draws attention which most HSPs do not like. We do not want that gaze on us. So, yeah, we try to fit in right. Oh, let me be that extroverted, risk-taking teenager and it just goes against our nature usually.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 21:23
Yeah, which is, I think, for a lot of people. It's confusing. It's confusing, I don't know. I guess also we can thank like media for creating these images of especially what you're supposed to be like at each decade of your life, like we're all supposed to want to do the same things in our teens and our 20s and 30s and up. But yeah, I was like I don't feel like I fit any of this and maybe, honestly, I look back and I think there are probably other kids I went to school with that didn't feel like it resonated with them either, didn't want to feel left out of social activities, but did you feel like the only one at the time?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 22:03
Yeah. Yeah, I did, because it would be like I don't know what it was. I think it was like it would be like cool to pick on somebody who was not like the rest of the group.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 22:16
so I tried really hard to not be that kid it was like I don't, because I sometimes would have moments in class where people would laugh about something I did, or I'm very expressive with my facial expression, so people would point that out and I was like, oh no, I don't, I don't want all this attention, like what you said. I don't want all this attention, like what you said, I don't want to be in the spotlight. But yeah, it was hard because I I wanted to be social with people, but I didn't feel like anybody really understood my sensitivity or that I was an introvert. I liked different things.
April Snow: 22:50
Yeah, it's hard to be yourself fully when there's that scrutiny. And then also you said you mentioned something about the decades it's hard to be yourself fully when there's that scrutiny. And then also you mentioned something about the decades. There's this expectation at each decade of your life and often, as HSPs, we don't want to. We're doing something different, we want to live a different life, or we're doing things slower, we take more time. Then there's that constant pressure to keep up.
April Snow: 23:13
Yeah, it can wreak havoc internally, your sense of self, your, your confidence and that perfectionism you know a lot of clients I've talked with. They're doing all the right things but then they're incredibly unhappy inside or they're suffering with depression or anxiety and or other struggles because this is not the life they want to live. Yeah, so perfection can really lock you into a sense of obligation doing for others but never for yourself.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 23:42
It's yeah it's so difficult yeah, it's very difficult and it's interesting now that I'm older and I work with teenagers of color who are just. It's like I'm watching myself. It's very surreal. But they all say the same thing they're depressed, they have anxiety. That's something that doesn't feel right. It's like they're doing everything that everybody else is doing but it's not making them happy. They're trying to make parents happy, teachers happy, friends happy, and it's exhausting and that resonates with me, because that's what I felt like I was doing for so long was okay.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 24:25
Everybody's got different expectations of me and I don't want to let anyone down. And I think also, when you're a sensitive person, you just don't want anyone to feel bad. You don't want anyone to think you're not doing enough, you don't care enough. So that was on my mind too, like I didn't want anybody to think I didn't care what they felt, and so I was like managing everyone else's emotions, but I wasn't tending to myself.
April Snow: 24:49
There's nothing left over to tend to yourself at that point. There's nothing left over to tend to yourself at that point. You're pulled in so many different directions, trying to meet so many other people's expectations, whether you know them, or it's more conceptual. I'm wondering how is perfectionism let's talk about it in regards to family influences, community influences?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 25:12
How do those tie together. I think I'm sitting with on Instagram a lot. There's always these posts that come up about Black excellence, yeah, and it's always interesting to me when people see these posts about a young Black person getting like a doctorate degree at a really young age or getting accepted into many different private universities and there's a lot of praise like, oh, you're doing something really amazing. And I always get really uncomfortable with that because I always think to myself I feel like this is putting so much pressure on us to be exceptional. And even my own therapist said to me years ago when I first started with her and I was learning about being highly sensitive. She was like do you feel like you've ever learned that you can be average? And I was like, oh no, I've never heard that message from my family and not that I think my parents would say, well, they never pressured me to excel.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 26:19
But I think underlying there was always an expectation that I would go to college and that I would look at going to graduate school and there's sometimes the hope of going to get a PhD.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 26:28
So that is the underlying message I think as a Black person, for me, but I've seen for other Black people that the only way we are fully seen is if we're excelling all the time, and it's exhausting to always be at the top. I would get messages as a kid like I wasn't consistent enough in class, how come I wasn't always hitting the higher grades, and I was just like, oh my God grades. And I was just like, oh my God. This is a lot of pressure to always be a really high achieving person or always be an A student. And yeah, it's just interesting how, for me, when I see these posts of black people being exceptional, it makes me upset because it's I feel like this is just encouraging more perfectionism for us, that like, oh, there's other black kids that are really working hard and you're falling behind and you gotta catch up with everybody yeah, you don't.
April Snow: 27:21
As a person of color, you don't have the privilege, the luxury to be middle of the road. Right, because there's a lot. If we're honest, there's only so many spots for success when you're a person of color. You have to fight. But what if you don't want to fight? What if you don't want to be a doctor or a lawyer or an engineer? What if you want to have kind of a soft, quiet life? Mm-hmm, right, mm-hmm, but there's yeah. But you said but then there's that criticism.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 27:52
Well, you're not continuing to excel no-transcript that you're lazy if you're not pushing yourself or you're prioritizing the wrong things in your life, and that's a lot to unlearn to feel like if I'm not hitting all the high notes, then I'm failing.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 28:33
And it's a lot of pressure, you're right, not just from yourself internally, because I already know, as a highly sensitive person, I'm already really hard on myself. I like things a certain way, and then you have the pressure of people in your family or people in your community, and you don't want to let people down. You don't want people to feel like that you're not dependable or you're not a reliable person. So to constantly prove that you can meet all these standards, it's hard, it's really hard, and I think it wasn't until I got older that I saw how harmful that was to put so much pressure on myself and then to put pressure on other people and it's like you forget. You can still be very proud of your culture and also prioritize things that are important to you, even if other people in your community don't necessarily agree with that you can find a different way to honor.
April Snow: 29:33
Yeah, what does that look like for you finding that balance?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 29:38
For me. Oh, that's a great question. For so long I was always thinking I really care about my career and my education. But I always knew, even when I was younger, I really wanted my own family and I always fantasized about certain things like marriage or having kids. And I always thought I don't know if that's possible to do both, because I would hear those messages like you can't have it all right. And so I thought I had to choose again. So I was like I should just focus on my career and my education and all the other stuff is not important.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 30:16
Then I got older and had different relationships in my life and I realized, no, this is not going away like this. I still would like a family, I still want to prioritize that part of myself. But it was really it's really hard. It's still really hard to want both, because the messaging has always been you can't do both, it's too hard to do both, and so you have to pick what's the most important. And that was really confusing because I was like how do I pick? I want different things for myself.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 30:51
But, I'm being told that, no, you can't have both of that.
April Snow: 30:57
Yeah, you're saying, though no, I can have both. I can be soft and strong, I can work and have a family, I imagine. Just a matter of doing it on your own terms. How do you get both?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 31:16
Recognizing, you have to find people that support that, because I think that was part of the problem for me too. I wasn't finding people that supported that idea, and I think that was part of it, and I think sometimes we can, like subconsciously, do that. It's if we think we can't have both of something, we like subconsciously pick things that don't actually help us align with what we want.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 31:40
So yeah, I didn't realize I was doing that was putting myself in like a lot of environments or relationships that were always telling me you can't do both, you have to pick. And to really sit with myself about what did I want, not what did everybody else expect of me or want from me was really hard because it was to me going against what I was raised to believe or what messages I got from society about what's important as a Black woman.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 32:08
But I was like if I've always wanted this soft life when I was a kid. I don't think that's going to change when it never did for me.
April Snow: 32:16
No, it's who you are. And needing to really calm down that perfectionism to be able to accept. This is what I want. This is me. Here's how I want to live.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 32:28
Yeah, yeah.
April Snow: 32:32
When you're working with your perfectionism, what helps? What are your favorite resources or practices to help calm that down?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 32:40
I love breath work and meditation, like I was into that a little bit when I was in college and then it fell off. But then recently, in the past year, I did find an app that I love that helps me to just sit with my breath, cause I've always noticed, even when I was a kid, if I was really stressed I just stopped breathing and didn't recognize that I wasn't breathing for a long time until the stress was over. But I never knew what to do with my breath when I was stressed out, I would just not breathe. But doing daily breath work really helps me to stay connected and regulate myself. It also, like, in a really interesting way, helps me feel like I'm in control of myself, because I think for a long time I thought my sensitivity is out of my control. I don't know how to regulate it, but breath work reminds me like, no, I can decide how I regulate my breath on a daily basis, even when I am stressed. So that helps.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 33:42
And then I also think practicing more like vulnerability, because it's always so easy for me to just not share if I'm going on with something internally, because I want to seem like I have it together and I don't need extra help. But my own therapist. I was like why don't you talk about your anxiety? Why don't you express if something's challenging at work or I'm like why would I do that? That's just gonna make everything more stressful. But I realized it's helpful because then I get to know who can show up for me and who can't. But I think cause I used to put so much pressure on myself that I didn't want to feel like a disappointment or a burden that I should just figure it out by myself.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 34:26
But I realized I don't have to do that and it really helps to share that with people.
April Snow: 34:31
Yeah, it's humanizing, isn't it? Oh, we're all going through something, and usually other for the most part, others are happy to hear what's really going on for us, how they can support us, and it does help break down that perfectionism. I don't have to be perfect all the time for everybody. I can be a whole human here, with struggles, and breathwork is a way. It's something that we always have access to. I know it can be edgy at times, but it's always there. Breath is always there. It's a way. It's one thing you can control, that you can influence when, even if everything else is chaotic. You mentioned that there's an app that you use. Do you know, would you mind sharing, what the name of that is?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 35:17
Yeah, it's called Open, just O-P-E--n and I think it's a relatively new app. Um, I'm forgetting the name of the meditation teacher who started it, but I think it's based in california and it has a lot of different meditation classes, breathwork classes with different teachers and sometimes even with the breathwork, there's music that goes with the exercises, so that's really fun. They have yoga and you like stretching exercises you want to do so. It's a really great wellness app, but I mainly use it for the meditation.
April Snow: 35:54
It sounds beautiful. I'm going to check it out.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 35:56
Yeah, yeah, that's great, it's right up my alley. Something else that I love to do for myself is tarot cards and tarot readings, and I actually started learning about that during the pandemic. I think we were all sheltering in place, especially in New York, and my mom had a deck of tarot cards that she never touched and I decided I was going to start teaching myself about all these different images, and it was fascinating how intuitive the process is. I didn't think that it would be. I thought you just memorize the same thing of following the rules, you just memorize all the meaning of the cards and then that's how you do tarot. But then when I was taking workshops and trainings on it, people would tell me, no, it's.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 36:46
How do you see the cards or what images show up for you? What's the intuitive message you're getting from the pictures and the different cards? And I was like, oh, I didn't think it was about my intuition. I thought you had to follow what everyone else said, and so just reading even just one tarot card in the morning for myself, it helps me to just reflect and listen to my own intuition about what's going on for me, what's going on around me, what do I need for myself what's something I can work on or reflect on still, and I like using that in my professional work and people actually really love it, because it's just a different way of tapping into your intuition.
April Snow: 37:28
I love. That Sounds like a perfect tool for perfectionists to reconnect with and sensitive people in general. Just to reconnect with self, your intuition, what's happening in your internal experience? I'm curious. How does it show up in work with clients? What does that look like?
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 37:47
Sometimes I like to just pull a card at the beginning of session. I can tell a client is feeling really scattered, especially if they're not used to explaining or putting to words their sensitivity. Just they're always saying, oh, I'm so sorry, I can't seem to articulate what I'm saying. So I pull a card to just help them start to understand what is the energy that's going on for them right now and they get a lot out of just the pictures. But I think it also, in this very subtle way, highlights the strengths of being a highly sensitive person that we can look at a picture and pick up little messages in things and they all do and it really helps to ground them that they actually can see things even when things are really stressful.
April Snow: 38:36
Yeah, it's a great resource because we are very we're very nuanced. So just seeing one image resource because we are very we're very nuanced, so just seeing in one image you could pull so much out of it. It could help imagine, channel some of the internal chaos that's happening, or stress or anxiety, and just help you filter it and make sense of what's actually going on inside.
April Snow: 38:53
For me today, I had a therapist years ago, we would pick just they weren't tarot cards, but they were just cards with images on them and it was very helpful for me. It just really helped ground me and settle me in a way and I could I feel like tarot cards. There's so much more to them because there's a story behind the images. I love this because I have I got a deck two years ago for my birthday to honor my 40th birthday and I love this permission of making your own meaning out of the images, because I'm also a perfectionist and I want to learn the official. But then sometimes an image is calling to me but the meaning doesn't make sense, but the image resonates. So now I'm going to approach them in a different way, a different way. Thank you, I feel excited now to work with them more. Yeah, yeah, for our conversation today. I'm wondering is there a card or an image that stands out? I would love to hear what you're feeling called to yeah, I'll shuffle now and see what comes up.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 40:05
Great, oh wow, this is the eight of wands. I can. I don't know if you can see. Is it clear on the screen? I can see it yeah yeah, before I dive in, do you have anything to say, anything that stands out to you?
April Snow: 40:22
I don't know why I'm just getting this image of slashing things away like a clearing. I'm not sure it's interesting. It's pulling back the veils to get deeper into an essence, getting more to the core, authenticity, taking the mask off. I don't know. It's just like after a battle and you can just be with yourself. Yeah. That's just what's coming up to me in the moment.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 40:48
Yeah, even like parts of that come up for me too, cause I always know the eight of wands. There's so much movement.
April Snow: 40:55
Yeah, yeah.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 40:57
Like things are just coming out of nowhere, coming from the sky, and it can be really overwhelming. I'm just thinking about this whole conversation we've had about being highly sensitive or being a person of color perfectionism. There's so many messages that come through and it's really easy to just keep going with that, to go with this really high, intense level of movement, and how do we slow down and how do we really listen to what actually are the messages we do want to receive, as they're feeling we need to take everything in?
April Snow: 41:31
exactly can we find our own source of clarity and focus and just set down all the noise? I'm always saying you have to turn your focus back inward, right, find your own compass, and that gets to apply even if you're a highly sensitive person of color, right, I know there's a lot here. It's not that easy, but just I'm feeling inspired by your permission to say you can do it too. It's a lot easier when you have a lot of privilege to follow all the advice we hear for HSPs Get lots of downtime and do all the self-care. And we're saying it's available for anyone. It just might have different obstacles to get there.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 42:17
Yeah, absolutely. I think even the world of therapy itself is changing to be more inclusive.
April Snow: 42:25
And.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 42:25
I've been doing a lot of learning myself. I'm still new to the field, so still figuring out how to let other people of color know they have permission to slow down even when it really doesn't feel comfortable, and we can always think about when does it feel the most safe to do that. But I think I've just seen with people I've talked to that it feels so freeing to say, oh, I don't have to push myself so much or I don't have to hang out with that person if I don't want to. It's wow, like I never heard that I can just let go, and I just think it's just healing for everybody to hear that we don't have to just do what we've always been told our whole lives if it doesn't feel comfortable for us.
April Snow: 43:11
That's right. Yeah, you can do what you need to do. Is there anything else that you want to share with listeners who are sensitive and BIPOC, who are maybe needing some of that permission to honor themselves? Go at their own pace, live the soft life.
Noni Vaughn-Pollard: 43:30
I would say you're not lazy, you're not disruptive, you're not a burden to people and that you deserve the same amount of patience, empathy and compassion as other people. And when you find the right people that understand you, you won't feel like you need to change everything about yourself because you won't have to always fit in. You can just be you and people will come to you who are okay with that.
April Snow: 44:04
Beautiful. Thank you so much, noni. Yeah, thank you so much. This was like such a treat to tell us I loved connecting with you, so I will. I'll share your website, your instagram and the show notes so folks can reach out to you. Thanks so much for joining me and Noni for today's conversation. What I hope you'll remember is that you can be sensitive and soft. You don't always have to be strong. Your sensitivity actually gets to take up space in your life and if you're a BIPOC HSP, know that you're not alone. Your sensitivity isn't a liability. Even if you didn't see sensitivity in your family lineage, it was there in the background. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSP resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
