14: Healing From One-Sided or Narcissistic Relationships as an HSP
With Julie Wrocklage, LPC
Are you in relationships where you feel lonely, exhausted, or used? In this episode, I talk with Julie Wrocklage, LPC about the emotional toll of being in one-sided relationships and:
• The differences between a supportive, reciprocal relationship and a one-sided relationship where there’s no or little reciprocity
• What makes highly sensitive people more vulnerable to being in relationships with emotionally immature or narcissistic people
• How you can advocate for your needs if a relationship is feeling one-sided
• Long-term impacts of gaslighting on the mental and physical health of HSPs • Starting the healing process whether you’re currently in a non-reciprocal relationship or have been in one in the past
• The importance of education, therapy, grief work, and self-compassion to make space for your experience and receive validation
Julie is a Licensed Professional Counselor in Columbia, Missouri. She takes a gentle and non-pathologizing approach to mental health, offering mindfulness-based therapy for sensitive, empathetic, and very-attuned-to-the-needs-of-others folks. As a therapist (and human), Julie is committed to inclusiveness, anti-racism, and LGBTQIA+ affirming care.
Keep in touch with Julie:
• Website: http://www.quietstrengthcounseling.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/quietstrengthcounseling/
Resources Mentioned:
• Adult Children of Emotionally Immature Parents by Lindsay Gibson, PsyD: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9781626251700
• It’s Not You: Identifying and Healing from Narcissistic People by Dr. Ramani Durvasula: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9780593492628
• Self-Compassion Practices by Kristin Neff: https://self-compassion.org/self-compassion-practices/#guided-practices
• Let Go of the People Who Aren’t Ready to Love You: https://thoughtcatalog.com/brianna-wiest/2024/04/this-year-let-go-of-the-people-who-arent-ready-to-love-you/
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Julie Wrocklage: 0:00
you deserve relationships that feel positive and energizing, not consistently draining. So wherever you can save your energy for those that can give it in return.
April Snow: 0:21
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Julie Rockledge about how HSPs are vulnerable to being in different types of one-sided, non-reciprocal relationships with people who are either emotionally immature, unable to identify the needs of others, or narcissists. We also explore how you can begin to heal from those relationships. Julie is a licensed professional counselor in Columbia Missouri. She takes a gentle and non-pathologizing approach to mental health, offering mindfulness-based therapy for sensitive, empathetic and very attuned to the needs of others folks. As a therapist and human, julie is committed to inclusiveness, anti-racism and LGBTQIA, plus affirming care For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video for the podcast.
April Snow: 1:37
Join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional, let's dive in. So, julie, could you start by sharing a little bit about your relationship to your sensitivity and if that's changed over the years?
Julie Wrocklage: 2:30
Yeah, of course it was in graduate school I first came across the term, but it wasn't until a couple of years later that I went deeper into it and got connected with highly sensitive therapists through a lot of the communities, spaces you've created, and it was just like being in those spaces and seeing the nuanced conversations and the thoughtfulness that I was like, wow, okay, I think I found my people and so from there there was like this initial real excitement about it and just like obsession, like diving deep into it.
Julie Wrocklage: 2:58
But then there has been a process of identity development. I think so at the time and still to some degree sometimes in spaces and relationships where it's not feeling possible or safe to fully embrace my sensitivity. So I think it's not the same thing but similar to as a queer person going through a process of dealing with internalized homophobia. It's like going through that process of dealing with internalized shame around sensitivity. From all these messages we get societally, more and more I am able to see myself clearly and appreciate that I'm a thoughtful person. I really want deep connection with other people and conscientious all those like beautiful qualities that come with it.
April Snow: 3:46
Yes, I resonate so much with when you said it becomes an obsession, because it really is something we need to dive into. At first, and when I first discovered I was in HSP, I was like, okay, I need to learn everything I can about this. And it was finally like a light bulb went off and I just wanted to soak up everything and just really redefine the relationship to myself and how my life had looked. And you do start to uncover oh, there's all these pieces about me because I'm sensitive. You can start to appreciate and I love how you said identity development. It's really true. We really step into ourselves through that. How is it being a highly sensitive person in a relationship? Because we're all we're very empathetic. That's one of our strengths. This is something that comes naturally to us, but it also makes us vulnerable in relationship as well.
Julie Wrocklage: 4:31
So can we talk about that? Yeah, definitely. So I think as HSPs we are deeply empathetic, we're good listeners and we are really curious towards other people. And we are really curious towards other people and sometimes we're doing a lot of that but we're not receiving it in return, and so there's this imbalance that can come about. It's true, we often give a lot more than we receive. Let me share a little more about what the imbalance looks like, and then I will share what reciprocity can look like.
Julie Wrocklage: 5:04
I think like one-sided relationships. Some relationships are one-sided by design, so it's we're podcaster and interviewer and interviewee, right. So the focus I'm sharing a lot here, and that's by design of parent-child relationship, a therapist-client relationship, those are meant to be like one person's needs are meant to be centered there. But what I'm thinking about when you're asking about like non-reciprocal relationships are those relationships where it's like in a marriage, one partner is doing 80% and the other partner is doing 20. And that's not like just for this season of life, it's always been that way through the whole relationship. And then also like in friendship, if it's, one person gets to do all the talking all the time.
Julie Wrocklage: 5:52
And I can give an example like imagine that you are going to lunch with a friend right so you get to the restaurant and you settle into the booth and you greet one another, you place your order and you enter in a conversation but it's mostly that person that you're meeting up with talking and so at first, and you greet one another, you place your order and you enter in a conversation, but it's mostly that person that you're meeting up with talking, and so at first it's yeah, like I'm excited to learn about how life's been going and how your day is. But you have this expectation that then they'll give you a turn to talk, and then it doesn't happen. So you're getting to the end of that meal and you're feeling depleted and this like exhaustion is setting in and you're not feeling seen, and so you come away from that interaction just feeling like almost used, and so that is what I'm thinking about when I'm thinking about like non reciprocity.
April Snow: 6:58
Yeah.
April Snow: 6:58
I've definitely relate so much that I have had many friendships where I would end up feeling empty at the end of interactions, feeling used, where giving a lot, asking a lot of the questions, showing interest, but doesn't quite come back in the same way or at all. And for me personally, I've definitely, for, I think, a long period of my life, felt oh, that's okay, I didn't really know anything better. I'm just thinking about younger me. What is a relationship like when there's reciprocity? I know, I really know what it looks like when it's not there, but how do we know if it's more balanced?
Julie Wrocklage: 7:20
What does that look like? Yeah, yeah. So I feel like reciprocity is like the key ingredient for healthy relationships. So it's like this mutual exchange of support, curiosity, connection, investment, care, and then in conversation, I think it has to do with the flow of energy. So is there a back and forth or is it that dynamic of one person is talking, one person is listening for most of the time, and also taking into account that sometimes it's neurodivergent. So this doesn't necessarily mean that if you were to express that you wanted to participate more, that person wouldn't accommodate your need.
April Snow: 8:03
Reciprocity is the key ingredient in a healthy relationship. But let's say I recognize I'm not in a balanced relationship and a one-sided relationship. How can I start to advocate for my needs? How can I ask for the other person to show up for me?
Julie Wrocklage: 8:21
It can be tricky One. It requires that you recognize that there is an imbalance. That can be hard, yeah, yeah. So sometimes before we know we're allowed to have boundaries or like that our worth exists outside of helping people. We could fall into some codependent patterns. So recognizing, okay, there's an imbalance and I want it to be different.
Julie Wrocklage: 8:41
And then, practically I just think about, like in conversation, like an example, if you are talking on the phone with a friend and they're venting and you could literally mute the phone and they wouldn't notice. That's your signal. Okay, there isn't reciprocity here. And what you can do with that is say would you mind if we switched gears? I was looking forward to sharing with you about X, y and Z. Or if it's like this person is really talking at you and you need to go, you're feeling trapped, to say I'd hate to interrupt you but I only have 20 minutes left. Can I share with you some about what's been going on with me? So really having that language readily available to be able to pull it up in the moment when you're feeling that imbalance, yeah, Just taking up some space, putting a little wedge in the conversation.
April Snow: 9:34
Hey, just want to let you know here's my limit, first of all and I love this, not just saying this is how much time I had left. There's definitely some relationships in my life where I really have to work hard to keep it contained, thinking of some family relationships. So I'm often saying, okay, I have 20 minutes left. But then the hard part is can you also hold some space for me? When I heard you say that, I was like you can do both.
Julie Wrocklage: 10:02
Yeah, yeah, it's twofold's too. Yeah, it's knowing your limits and having containment around it, but also clearing out that space and requesting that you also get to feel seen and heard like one person getting their emotional needs met and the other person coming away exhausted. That is not. That's not reciprocity no yeah's not.
April Snow: 10:23
That's a clear sign whether you're feeling used, empty, depleted. At the end of conversations you don't feel like you were able to feel support Very clearly. A one-sided relationship that's the pattern. It might happen occasionally, let's say, if there's something going on for someone, but generally you should feel like you got to take up some space.
Julie Wrocklage: 10:44
Yeah, yeah, and I think that's an important thing to clarify what you just said that it's not that there's never going to be a. It's not that relationships are always going to be 50-50. It's that. Is there a pattern here of a consistent neglect of my needs and my interest in also participating in conversation? Yeah, exactly, now we hear a lot about makes me think of exactly.
April Snow: 11:05
Now we hear a lot about makes me think of narcissists, because we hear a lot about narcissism. So if I'm someone who's in a non-reciprocal relationship, a one-sided relationship, does that automatically mean I am in a relationship?
Julie Wrocklage: 11:18
with a narcissist. So if you are noticing there isn't reciprocity, you're becoming aware of that. Noticing there isn't reciprocity, you're becoming aware of that, it does not automatically mean that there's narcissism happening. So narcissism is think about that on the far end of the spectrum. That's like a severe form of non reciprocity. So what we're talking about is more on the other end of the spectrum, where there's possibility for change. If you were to voice your needs so sometimes it's my growth edge Can I use my voice and speak my needs, and as soon as that person hears from me, they will shift, they will change. If you're doing that, though, and you're still feeling emotionally lonely, exhausted in this relationship, it might be that there is emotional immaturity going on. So that's a step before narcissism.
April Snow: 12:11
Okay, so emotional maturity is separate from narcissism. What does emotional immaturity look like? Is it all the things we shared, not noticing when someone's needing something, not being aware that you're taking up a lot of space? Are there other signs that someone might be emotionally immature?
Julie Wrocklage: 12:29
Yeah, so it's that, but it's more. There's more rigidity to it and there's less likelihood that change can happen. I learned about this term from reading Lindsay Gibson's book adult children of emotionally immature parents and I actually had a like. I had a reaction to the title, like I wasn't able to read it right away. It took me a couple of years because I'm like super non-pathologizing, so I'm like I just had a reaction to labeling someone emotionally immature. But as I started reading it was like, oh no, this is actually just a descriptive term, like it's not that an emotionally immature person is a bad person, it's just wait. It's helpful to know this so that I know what expectations to bring to that person and that relationship.
April Snow: 13:18
It is. I see this a lot with my clients. I had this experience with myself where at first it can be really difficult to put some of these labels on people, especially if they're your parents or, let's say, your spouse or people that you love. It's difficult to put people in those categories and so I appreciate you saying it's not to criticize, it's more just to categorize or to understand. Yeah, this is some language to put to our experience.
Julie Wrocklage: 13:44
Yeah, it really is, because our attachment needs are real. We don't want to except that a deeper connection with this person might not be possible. That's like really painful.
April Snow: 13:57
Yes, it really is, and you're saying that it's. That's not always off the table. There could be room for you to show up, to be supported. It just depends on where the other person is at. So we talked about that spectrum with emotional maturity and these non-reciprocal relationships, and at the far end is narcissism. Can you define what?
Julie Wrocklage: 14:19
is a narcissist. Yeah, yeah, a narcissist is someone with low empathy, a lot of self-focus and a need for admiration and a contempt for others. So this is more harmful. It can be really harmful. Narcissists are not going to take responsibility for their behavior. They're going to look outward to assign blame to another person or a circumstance. Said that, like, the language of narcissism is gaslighting, which is the denial of your reality, and I wanted to share. There's this poem that I came across that like really gets at what it feels like to interact with a narcissist. And if you come to them with something that hurt your feelings or any kind of feedback, any kind of hey, this is how that affected me. This poem gets at what you're going to experience. Can I read that? Please do Okay. It's titled the narcissist prayer. That didn't happen, and if it did, it wasn't that bad. And if it was, that's not a big deal. And if it is, that's not my fault, and if it was, I didn't mean it, and if I did, you deserved it.
April Snow: 15:40
Oh, so much minimizing and deflecting, not taking responsibility for impact of your actions. I'm curious what this poem brings up for you.
Julie Wrocklage: 15:54
Yeah, it just gives me chills, I don't know. It just really gets at the heart of how painful it is to engage with someone that is not trying to understand you like it does to us when we experience that chronic invalidation where it's like if this person is so confident that they're right and they're the victim and I'm wrong they start to question yourself Absolutely.
April Snow: 16:21
You really do, especially because they're coming off so confidently, so strongly. It's like a brick wall. There's no arguing, I'm always right, you're always wrong. You can't win, you can't win. What do you do with that? I'm really seeing here how that differs quite a lot from someone who's maybe emotionally mature, who's maybe can we say a little bit selfish, even right, but also still has capacity for reflection. It seems like there's little capacity for reflection here.
Julie Wrocklage: 16:55
Yeah, with both emotionally immature people and narcissisms there is very little capacity for self-reflection. But I think with narcissism you don't always have the gaslighting with emotional immaturity. So, while I guess one way to put it is like all are also emotionally immature, but not all emotionally immature people are narcissists. So narcissist is a very like rigid, unchanging personality styles. It can be tricky to differentiate between the two, but it's that, yeah, like on that spectrum again where it's okay. If you've identified there's emotional immaturity here and you're utilizing strategies to work with that and it's still you're still feeling so terrible in the relationship, then you might move into okay. Is there narcissism going on here?
April Snow: 17:46
When we're in a narcissistic relationship, we're noticing there's more gaslighting. The person is more rigid. They're not willing to change or receive feedback or even look inward, take any responsibility. What else might we notice if we're in a narcissistic relationship?
Julie Wrocklage: 18:04
Yeah, yeah. So really, the only way that a narcissistic relationship will work is if you've shut yourself down. So you'll notice that any expression of self, so any here's my perspective, here are my feelings, here are my thoughts comes in as a threat to the narcissist. It's like you, you don't exist apart from them, and any expression of self is very likely to be invalidated and dismissed. So it's interesting like if you're in that relationship with a narcissist, you almost become the container for their shame. So underneath the facade of charisma and confidence and success, oftentimes narcissistic people are very successful. Our society rewards it in many ways. Underneath of that there's this deep well of shame, and so the way that they're dealing with their shame is to project it out onto you. So I criticize you, I minimize your feelings, I feel powerful, you're having a reaction, you're getting upset. That's what's termed narcissistic supply for the narcissist. That's building them up, and so that can be very dangerous, especially for a highly sensitive person to be in that type of relationship.
April Snow: 19:32
It is very dangerous because I'm just thinking. The narcissist probably, I would imagine, loves the empathy we have. Right, because I know for myself one of the struggle. There's a lot of strengths about being highly sensitive, but one of the struggles I have is that I always can see why someone's doing something.
Julie Wrocklage: 19:51
You can always understand.
April Snow: 19:52
Oh, they're doing this out of pain or struggle or illness or whatever it is, and I create a lot of room for people, but that gets dangerous. Should we pull our empathy back from narcissists?
Julie Wrocklage: 20:05
One strategy that comes immediately to mind is actually from the book on emotional immaturity, but it's helpful for both. This concept of relatedness versus relationship. So, as highly sensitive people, we crave that deep connection with other people. We want harmony in our relationships in our little world, and so it can be really difficult to accept that there are people where that's not going to be possible to have that with them. But basically, the usual ways that we go about relationship building don't work with these people and it's not safe to do so.
Julie Wrocklage: 20:43
If you come to an emotionally immature person or a narcissist and you're open and you are trying to emotionally connect, you are nine times out of 10, going to come away from that interaction feeling frustrated, feeling invalidated.
Julie Wrocklage: 20:59
For an emotionally immature person and a narcissist, it's like any attempt at emotional intimacy. It's like putting a snake in their lap. That's what Dr Lindsay Gibson describes it as like they are phobic, they do not want it, they don't know how to do it. And so, instead of approaching this individual as you would somebody that has that emotional maturity and capacity for intimacy you want to approach it as relatedness rather than relationship, and what that means is you're coming into an interaction with the person and you're going in with no expectation of a satisfying emotional experience. So that can be so hard for us as HSCs to accept that. Oh okay, I just have to be more robotic with this person, like I can't, but it's protection. So if I do it that way, I'm being realistic about what's possible with this person, and that's key to not fall victim to over and over. I'm disappointed over and over.
April Snow: 22:04
I'm getting hurt Absolutely. I see how this is. It's really important to set expectations for yourself in these types of relationships. We could say if that's happening, it's one-sided, I'm not getting my needs met. I have to shut things down. Maybe I should just not be in relationship with this person, but sometimes you have to. It's your employer, it's your parents right, it's someone who you can't avoid contact with. So, in those circumstances, really consider who you're engaging with and being realistic about what they're going to give you or not give you, and protecting yourself, not expecting this person to meet your emotional needs or to really even be able to support you in any way. Because as HSPs we do. We really value emotional connection, we value depth, really getting to know people at these more intimate levels, and that's not going to happen in these relationships. So being really realistic about it as soon as that can be.
Julie Wrocklage: 23:03
Yeah, it's.
Julie Wrocklage: 23:04
As HSPs, we I think everyone is vulnerable to the harmful behaviors that come out of a narcissistic personality not even necessarily like a clinical diagnosis, but like a narcissist, because we the charisma, as I mentioned before, the confidence like this person that appears they could be a leader in your community.
Julie Wrocklage: 23:24
They like have the respect of people when they're wearing their mask and they're out and they know that they need to be on their best behavior. But then the trouble is they come home with you and you see a whole other side. You are experiencing that dismissiveness, You're being discarded, You're not being listened to, and so, as HSPs, I think we're all vulnerable to it and we all should be educated about it. But for HSPs because the things that you were saying we want to deeply connect, we have we tend to be agreeable, always attempting to see the other person's point of view, naturally receptive to others and wanting to help others If you don't have this information, you could just continue to see this person through a compassionate lens and continue to just put yourself in harm's way rather than recognizing. Oh, this person, their personality isn't changing, and so how do I, rather than like, how do I fix the relationship, I protect myself here.
April Snow: 24:27
That's the the approach self-protection.
Julie Wrocklage: 24:30
That's the approach self-protection.
April Snow: 24:32
So I'm wondering let's say someone's listening to this conversation, they're realizing, or they have realized recently, that they're in a relationship like this where it's one-sided. Maybe it's someone with emotional maturity, maybe it's someone who's narcissistic, but how can we start to begin the healing process, especially with those relationships where the relationships that are so important to us partners, family members how?
Julie Wrocklage: 24:56
do we begin that healing process? Yeah, yeah, the first thing that comes to mind is reading everything you can on the subject. So a lot of what I'm sharing today comes from Lindsay Gibson's book. We've talked about that one.
Julie Wrocklage: 25:08
And then Dr Romney recently came out with a book titled it's not you, and then she also has a YouTube channel with a ton of videos, and so I would say, start there, and if you recognize yourself or the patterns in your relationship in those videos, that tells you something. So, starting with really educating yourself. And that's because the more language you have for what's going on and the more you can identify these patterns, the freer it's possible for you to get from the emotional and psychological harm. You're less likely to take the bait, you're less likely to get hooked into that dynamic with them where you aren't getting your needs met but you're consistently delivering supply to them. You're consistently stroking their ego or just centering, prioritizing their needs at the expense of all else. And then, if you have the financial resources to do, I highly recommend therapy, and I can talk more about what would go on in therapy around this if you'd like.
April Snow: 26:05
Yeah I think that would be helpful is if someone is looking to take that next step. Maybe they've done some self-education, some self-exploration, but they need that next level of support. So if a client's coming in with you, they're in relationship with a narcissist in their family and they're maybe a partner or a spouse, or even a coworker or boss, what might that look like in therapy?
Julie Wrocklage: 26:29
Yeah, yeah. So the main things are the education and then validation.
Julie Wrocklage: 26:36
So when you've experienced this chronic invalidation, it is medicine to hear your therapist say yeah, that makes sense. Wow, you've endured so much. This is a lot, and your feelings are valid here. When you've got someone in a narcissistic relationship for any period of time, it's like your identity, your voice is stolen, and so there's also this process of rebuilding a sense of self, like I'm allowed to have needs, wants, preferences, a sense of identity apart from this person. So it's a lot of that work.
April Snow: 27:17
Yeah, having an opportunity to not only take up some space but to actually be heard Seems like validation is the antidote to gaslighting. That's beautiful, yes, that's it. That's. It Seems so healing when you've been gassed up for years and told your experience is not real. We have sensitive people, experience this at low levels, I think, no matter what. But if you're in one of these types of relationships with a narcissist or it's someone who's emotionally mature, you're experiencing that much higher level. So having that validation can be so healing. You need someone to say I see you, I believe you, your experience is valid. Education therapy those are really important. Are there ways we can self-validate in?
Julie Wrocklage: 28:02
the meantime, yes, yes, self-compassion is huge, wherever you can find it. If it's a meditation app, if it's Kristen Neff's website, such a good resource. Yeah, really, starting to, in the smallest of ways, take care of yourself, and that won't make what's happening with the narcissist in your life stop. And I think a lot of times, along with encouraging self-care, it becomes encouraging boundaries. But when you're dealing with a narcissist, they won't tolerate it. There there's no, that is an expression of self and that is threatening to them. So it's.
Julie Wrocklage: 28:43
There are different strategies that you can use that Dr Romney talks about. There's, like, different names for them, like gray rocking, where you just become boring to the person so that they'll leave you alone. There are all sorts of these little tricks and tips to be able to get through the days, especially if you're not in a position where you can leave this relationship. That maybe it's that you're financially dependent, maybe it's that there are kids and there there isn't a feeling of I have other options. But the other thing with therapy is there is a tremendous amount of grief that comes up around this, because you wanted this relationship to work, whether it's your parent or it's your spouse or a dear friend. You never wanted things to end up this way, it's true, and so coming to these painful realizations is just opening you up to so much grief.
April Snow: 29:37
There's so many different layers of this work coming back to yourself and healing what you never had, this person who is probably very integral, or you wouldn't be doing this amount of work and then finding ways to remind yourself that you're enough. It's okay to take up space, you're not crazy or any of those things that you've heard, but it's a process.
Julie Wrocklage: 30:03
You made me think of another concept from Dr Lindsay Gibbons book. She distinguishes between internalizers and externalizers. Lindsay Gibbons book, she distinguishes between internalizers and externalizers. So when you meant, if you're an internalizer which I'm willing to bet 99% of HSPs are falling to the internalizer camp you are very self-reflective. You are always looking to see what could I have done different? You come away from a social interaction. You're like what could I have done differently? You're always asking yourself that question Am I doing enough? And so for an internalizer to learn about what an externalizer is can be game-changing, because an externalizer, where internalizers are looking inward, externalizers are looking outward and assigning blame outward. They're reactive, and so we tend to, I think, as human beings, assume that other people's brains operate the same as ours.
Julie Wrocklage: 30:54
And so it's like how could this person act this way and feel no remorse? How could they not want to connect on a deeper level All of these things to really come into a radical acceptance around? This person doesn't have the capacity, like their brain is, they're not even thinking. A second thought about the conversation that you had, whereas you might go into rumination for a few days, it's true.
April Snow: 31:18
We only have our own experience internally, so we often think other people are either having the same experience or capable of the same experience. Not always true. As HSPs, we have a high degree of empathy that's very different than what 70 to 80% of other people have, so a lot of people just aren't capable of the amount of empathy or the amount of internal reflection that we do. There is a lot of grief in acknowledging this is the reality of this relationship and this is how it's going to be.
Julie Wrocklage: 31:50
Yeah, I think that you don't want that to be true. So you're so invested, especially people that like like your parent or your spouse again, where you're invested in this relationship, working to really come into that radical acceptance of this is a behavioral pattern that does not change. It is very, very, very, very rare that somebody with a narcissistic personality style is able to shift out of that, and so, while it's deeply painful and it's like the gateway into your grief, it's also there's also some relief in it, because it's like it's not me, like I'm not the one not doing enough, like I can't single-handedly cultivate and maintain a relationship with a person that is not participating.
April Snow: 32:44
Exactly, you cannot. It's impossible. You mentioned some relationships you will stay in even under these conditions. Can you heal or can you do some of this healing work while still in relationship?
Julie Wrocklage: 32:59
Yes.
April Snow: 32:59
Yes, you can.
Julie Wrocklage: 33:00
Some people are not able to leave, and Dr Romney talks about that in her book. Educating yourself and getting access to this information is life-changing. So to be able to understand what's happening, map it out and like access, community with other people that have experienced the same thing, it's no longer. Are you lost in this dark abyss of what's going on. Why is this happening? Why I'm a nice person, I think. Why do I keep getting this rejection and dismissiveness from this person that is supposed to be somebody that loves me and wants to protect me or care for me? So it's starting to utilize some of those strategies and developing your sense of self. You won't be able to share it with the narcissist in your life, but you can certainly have that happening internally and carve out space for yourself very strategically, because you're still walking on eggshells around this person.
Julie Wrocklage: 34:04
But I believe there's a lot that can go on internally. It's not good for your health to be in a relationship with a narcissist. So it's not that you can totally avoid the harm that's coming your way. But, like I said, this knowledge is it's life saving to life changing and it can save your life because this can lead you down. If you're experiencing this. It can lead you down to a real depression, thoughts of suicide, like feeling totally worthless. And if you don't know why and that it's like something outside of you that you can't control that's causing this, you blame yourself.
April Snow: 34:47
Literally life-saving, because if you're in a deep depression or experiencing the physical effects of this amount of stress and gaslighting, just having this knowledge can help you at least start to look at yourself differently. Know what the truth is. Start to seek other spaces where you are validated and supported. That could be therapy. That could be with a close friend, other family members just having other spaces. You don't have to make a radically new life to at least start the process to healing.
Julie Wrocklage: 35:24
Yeah, and a lot of it that you can do while you're in. You're still in that relationship or just interacting with that person. Sometimes it's my parent is a narcissist, but I still want to be connected to the family, and so that can get really tricky. What am I giving up If I go? No contact with this person? How does that affect other people? All of this it's very complicated, yeah, yeah. So stepping into an observer role with the interactions you have with this person, that can be game changing too, just instead of allowing it to get to the most vulnerable place in you, almost like you're like at the zoo and you're looking in on an animal's cage. You're just like, oh, that's interesting, they're raising their voice.
April Snow: 36:08
Oh okay.
Julie Wrocklage: 36:09
They are now slamming something on the table, just like observing it in a detached way, rather than like having this like feeling of responsibility for it, or this like reactivity, like this emotional harm to you.
April Snow: 36:31
I try to bring my clients through this process when they're dealing with relationships where they cannot totally detach. Can we at least observe and create some internal boundaries? Internal boundaries, yeah, where I'm not giving my energy, I'm not holding emotional space for someone who doesn't feel safe. I may still be physically around them, but I'm not giving them that internal emotional mental space the way that I would and observing can be an anchor For me. It keeps me very grounded. Where I go into a different mode, it's much more objective, I suppose.
Julie Wrocklage: 37:06
Yeah, yeah, and I think about P's. We are curious and we are empathetic, and so we can look at a person and understand where their behavior is coming from. We can get it. I know why you are the way you are. Like this is a trauma you've experienced. But the key thing is we understand. That doesn't justify the behavior. That doesn't mean it's safe for me to be around that person, nor does it mean I should exhaust myself with empathy towards this person when all I'm receiving from them is gaslighting, invalidation, so on and so forth.
April Snow: 37:44
Exactly, and we can still have empathy for a person without caregiving. Yes, you can have empathy from afar. I feel empathy for the situation you're in. That you've had a trauma that's gotten you to this point Doesn't mean that I have to be the one to receive the effects of that, yeah, and Dr Romney talks about in her book.
Julie Wrocklage: 38:05
She gives us examples. She's like well, there's an inevitable outcome If you enter into a tiger's cage. There's an inevitable outcome there. You can do it. If you just think that's a misunderstood cat and you just want to go in there and you want to pet that misunderstood cat, you can do that. Not going to turn out well, and so that helps my mind to get it a little more. It's yes, okay, that's the nature of this person, I can't change that that's the nature of this person.
April Snow: 38:31
I can't change that.
Julie Wrocklage: 38:32
And if I my empathy is a gift that I have but if I am applying it to somebody that's not going to change and that is, in fact, dangerous for me to be around, ooh, that's not good. And then another thing that I'm remembering I read was like where somebody that's emotionally mature and not narcissistic is approaching relationships looking for connection. Narcissistic is approaching relationships looking for connection. A narcissist is approaching relationships looking for control and dominance and power over and so we can't assume again that this person processes and thinks and approaches relationships in the same way.
April Snow: 39:08
Right, exactly, it's not about connection, it's about control, and that is not changing and needing to keep yourself safe internally and potentially physically as well.
Julie Wrocklage: 39:22
Yeah, yeah, and none of this is easy it's. There is so much grief involved and I would love to share. There's this, this excerpt from Dr Romney's book. Can I share it?
Julie Wrocklage: 39:34
It's about grief and it just, I think, really illustrates how painful this is. So she says to slowly realize that the person you love, or believe you were supposed to love, doesn't have real empathy, doesn't appear to care when you are hurt and will always put themselves first. It's a bleak realization. Despair is experienced by almost everyone navigating narcissistic relationships. It is a mix of sadness, helplessness, hopelessness, powerlessness, fear and, as I mentioned before, sometimes even suicidal thoughts. There is no way to fix the situation, make it better, be seen or receive empathy.
Julie Wrocklage: 40:18
No matter what you say or do, nothing changes, regardless of the type of narcissistic relationship. The recognition that it cannot change creates a sense of dread and unfathomable grief. Healing isn't just about trying it out. It's about grieving and clearing space and, in the new space, building a new life, finding your voice and feeling empowered to articulate your needs, wants and hopes and finally feel safe. This is the process of evolving from surviving and coping to growing and moving through grieving what has been difficult and then stepping into something brand new where there's possibility and space for you, and it's a journey, but it's possible.
April Snow: 41:05
Julie, as we wrap up, I'm wondering if there's a message you can leave for folks who currently finding themselves in one of these non-reciprocal relationships.
Julie Wrocklage: 41:16
Yeah, you deserve relationships that feel positive and energizing, not consistently draining. So wherever you can save your energy for those that can give it in return, Beautiful Julia, I want to thank you so much for being here today.
April Snow: 41:33
I really appreciated you giving folks a roadmap of sorts that they could walk through this process with. I'll be sure to share your website, your Instagram account, in the show notes and thanks again for being here.
Julie Wrocklage: 41:46
Thank you so much, april. I always enjoy our conversations, same, even more on this focused topic. Thank you.
April Snow: 41:53
Such a joy.
Julie Wrocklage: 41:56
Thank you.
April Snow: 42:03
Thanks so much for joining me and Julie for today's conversation. What I hope you'll take away is that your experiences are valid. It's okay to take up space in your relationships or set boundaries when you're feeling dismissed and you can begin to heal. Validation is the antidote to gaslighting. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSB resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
