08: Creating Community and Honoring the Many Faces of Sensitivity
With Brian Torres, LMFT
What has been your experience finding connection and community as a highly sensitive person? In this episode, I talk with Brian Torres, LMFT about the stigma of high sensitivity, the essential need for more inclusive HSP community spaces, and:
• The vulnerability of sharing your sensitivity and opening up to criticism and misperceptions about the trait
• The stigma of high sensitivity and the essential need for more inclusive HSP community spaces
• Feeling different as a sensitive kid and learning why as an adult
• What it means to be highly sensitive and LGBTQIA+ plus the parallels between the two
• Sensitivity doesn’t always look the same for HSPs from marginalized groups and why representation is important to represent the many ways sensitivity shows up
• The role privilege plays in honoring your sensitive needs
• Recognizing the resilience in sensitivity and the essential nature in HSPs using their gifts for equality and inclusiveness
Brian is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist from Los Angeles, California. He has previously served as a mental health and crisis counselor with the Los Angeles LGBT Center and The Trevor Project. In his clinical practice, Brian specializes in working with BIPOC and LGBTQ+ individuals, as well as highly sensitive persons. With a passion for research on high sensitivity, he has presented at conferences and offers insightful training on high sensitivity within the LGBTQ+ community.
Keep in touch with Brian:
Website: http://www.briantorrestherapy.com
Resources Mentioned:
• Alanis Morissette's Podcast
• The Highly Sensitive Person by Dr. Elaine Aron
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Brian: 0:00
HSPs can be really powerful critical thinkers, and we're better than to think critically than about all of these issues that relate to equity, equality, diversity and inclusiveness. Our minds are very useful here. How do we call upon our resilience in these times?
April: 0:23
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Brian Torres about the vulnerability of sharing your sensitivity when others misunderstand you, the parallels between sensitivity and being part of the LGBTQ plus community and the essential need for more inclusive HSP representation and community spaces. Brian is a licensed marriage and family therapist from Los Angeles, california. He has previously served as a mental health and crisis counselor with the Los Angeles LGBT Center and the Trevor Project. In his clinical practice, brian specializes in working with BiPak and LGBTQ plus individuals, as well as highly sensitive persons. With a passion for research on high sensitivity, he has presented at conferences and offers insightful training on high sensitivity within the LGBTQ plus community.
April: 1:40
For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at sensitive strengths or sign it for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. Welcome, brian. Can you start off by telling us a little bit about how and when you discovered that you're highly sensitive?
Brian: 2:31
I first heard author Dr Elaine Aron on a podcast and I think it was Alanis Morissette's podcast.
Brian: 2:39
If you haven't heard it, everybody should listen. But a lot of great thinkers and psychotherapy thinkers on there and so I heard it there and I just remember them going into detail about all of the traits of being an HSP and there was a lot that just connected at a time that was really important for me. It's also important to know that I was in grad school for clinical psychology at the time and you're learning so much at the time. I'm sure you're aware and I remember getting really interested in highly sensitive people and all those sort of academic and scientific research behind it. That's where I really got excited about it. And then at the time I was looking at parallels between being highly sensitive and what it meant to be a LGBTQ plus person in this world. I remember doing research and writing something about that. I'm just diving in and looking at those parallels and no one had ever researched the two before simultaneously. So they all found each other at that time and then I really stepped into understanding and claiming HSP as a part of my identity.
April: 3:42
I love that you claimed it.
Brian: 3:43
Yeah, yeah, it shifted here and there over time, but I remember at the beginning I couldn't know enough. I wanted to be in the community. I was looking for it to be affirmed in so many ways. I think it settled down a little bit, which is nice, but there was a lot of fun, exciting, like novel energy in the beginning, which I really just went hard with. I think you and I met at a bunch of events and I was just thirsty for more connection around it.
April: 4:08
It's true at the beginning, when you first realized I think a lot of us go through that process. I need to learn everything I can about it. I want to be in community. Finally, this part of me gets to be seen and understood.
Brian: 4:18
Was that?
April: 4:18
your experience.
Brian: 4:19
Yeah, I think it felt very vulnerable too. So you're wanting to connect with people about it and I remember it's oh, I found a nugget about myself, this little golden treasure piece, and then here and other people have it too and we can talk about it and so about really special it still does, but I remember in the beginning it was all kinds of exciting.
April: 4:39
It is exciting. I remember it too. I was also in grad school when I learned about it and it was like my whole world just opened up. You talked about it being vulnerable. I'm curious about that. I haven't heard you say that before.
Brian: 4:53
Oh, I think there's something about, like maybe you're opening up yourself to questions, criticism If someone doesn't know about the trait, maybe they're eye-rolling at you or trying to prove you wrong, so to speak. But you're opening up to people about hey, I have this trait and here's what that means. We live in a world where the word sensitive can be so stigmatized. A lot of people equate it as being something weak. So when you're claiming I'm a sensitive person, depending on where you are that you can't really always gauge the reactions of folks when you open up in that way. So I guess that's that vulnerability, right, you're inviting people into your sensitivity and you don't always know how they're going to take it.
April: 5:34
Yeah, it's so true. We often work so hard to hide away our sensitivity and now it's the opposite. Here it is front and center. I'm a vulnerable. I haven't really thought about it that way, but it's so true when you start to make that process of unearthing your sensitivity and starting to share with people.
Brian: 5:49
Maybe that's what the exciting part about trying to find community is, because you're wanting not to feel like you're the only one?
April: 5:54
Yeah, exactly, I'm wondering how did you get to the podcast? What happens before? What puts you on that path of I'm seeking this out? For me, I was seeking, but looking at parallels with introversion, because I was trying to figure out who am I, what is it, and that wasn't explaining everything about me, and then, just talking with people, that information Dr Alayna and spoke made its way into my hands. What were you seeking or what were you trying to figure out about yourself when you landed on that Alanis podcast?
Brian: 6:23
There's a little bit of bias because I've been in Alanis fans since I was like a child. So there's that. But no, but being a psychotherapist is not my first career. There's been other hats I've worn prior.
Brian: 6:35
I noticed that when I came to going back to school to study clinical psychology that I was traveling once backpacking and I got just leaving a career and didn't know what I was going to do next, didn't know who I was and what I was doing with my time on this planet. I was reading some book while traveling with a friend and it was really getting you to investigate what were some of the through lines and all of the things that you've been interested in. And for me there was this through line around this interest or this hunger around the human experience and finding the common denominator between everybody, and I've always been interested in psychology. So I guess a podcast like that was something I would listen to, and I was in grad school at the time. So I think there was just a thirst for more knowledge, and I had a professor once say that all research is me search, and I think that's the part of us that like looks for ourselves in things we're interested in studying.
Brian: 7:30
So I don't think it's accidental, but you hear this thing and then it overcomes you. There's other things I've listened to where I'm like, oh, I don't really see myself in that, but I see the value in that. But there's something about this that I remember feeling like I could pinpoint a lot of what the traits were in my life. I could go back and, oh, this makes sense. This applies to me as it relates to how I show up in relationships, how I show up in relationship to work, to stimulation and time. Just so much started to make sense.
April: 7:59
The lights which got turned on. Yeah everything became clear. You have to go back and almost rewrite your story a bit through the information.
Brian: 8:11
I think that's also a big piece about working with HSPs and mental health. It's like some of that work is going back and it's almost like you get to put a new filter on your life. And if you look at it through this lens, how does this start to make sense in a different way, where, yeah, like maybe some of the things you went through or some of the things you endured feel different. If you're a highly sensitive kid or highly sensitive young person, that can hold different meaning and hopefully a more positive one.
April: 8:39
Yeah. I like the shore of that through line and when you listen to that interview. Oh, sensitivity is one of my through lines.
Brian: 8:48
Yeah, oh, it's fun. I've never thought of it that way, but that actually makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I guess it is. Yeah, I got the sense that there was something different about me as a kid. That's something that the world around me not knocking the environment that I grew up in, but thinking that I don't know that the people around me were really equipped to handle me in a way, and I think in my family there's a kind of one size fits all approach, and I just don't think that was the approach with me and I was just starved for this different type of connection. I just saw things differently and wanted to talk about things in a very different way. Or I don't know. That's one story about a reef right.
Brian: 9:26
I used to have this believe or this narrative about me that I used to get lost a lot when I was little. So I always had this way that it was painted for me was that I would be responsible, I would wander off, and so I held that for years gosh, like I was a bad kid. Then I really realized what had happened is that we'd be in these crowded places and my attention would take me towards something that would catch my interest and just deep amassination, and then I would get lost because I'd lose who I was with. But then I remember thinking, wait, that wasn't my job, I was four years old, that I'm not in, yeah, so I started to look at that. As I didn't get lost, you lost me. Oh, I'm just a little Kaila with tons of wanderlust. Of course I need to be look after. My interest is gonna take me somewhere. That's one small example of oh, I healed from that a little bit. Yeah, that's a story about myself.
April: 10:17
Yeah, yeah, you lost me because they're curious. Already we're taking in our world. But as an HSP you know a little sensitive one. You're deep diving, you're immersing so deeply into every little thing around you. Of course you're gonna forget To track what adult you're with.
Brian: 10:37
Yeah, but I bet it's funny being a sensitive person now, because of that experience, it's really hard for me to watch stories or narratives where kids get lost. I remember this is I mean makes me laugh now, but finding Nemo or finding Dory watched it once can't really go. Yeah, yeah, it feels really personal, but yeah, I just remember that example just now.
April: 11:00
I think we often have this experience as sensitive people, as kids, where we get put into this box, so there's certain set of expectations about how to be, and we then start to disconnect from our sensitivity. Was that happening for you too? Do you feel like you lost connection with some of those parts of yourself that young, curious Brian who yeah?
Brian: 11:24
I think so. I think maybe you and I have talked about this before where I think for me, really early on as a queer person, sensitivity would get conflated or confused with queer identity. So at a really young age, something that felt Gender atypical for a young person assigned male at birth, oh, this is because you're queer, this is because you're gay, xyz, where those things have nothing to do with each other. So I feel like, as a sensitive person, there's this just deep awareness of the environment around you and this want to self protect. There's a part of me that's oh, because I don't want to be ostracized or stigmatized, I'm gonna either hide some of these parts of myself or be so no hyper achievement oriented or perfectionistic around them that if I'm gonna indulge them, I'm gonna be the best at them. Okay, I'm gonna be creative and I want to act as a kid or say I better be better than everybody. Or if these aren't things I'm wanting to pursue or bring to light, I'm gonna really hide them.
April: 12:23
All or nothing.
Brian: 12:25
Yeah, yeah, wow. I just feel like I was like, yeah, that's all that nothing type of thinking, and it'll be, and it's great material for my therapist. Everything is fodder for yeah yeah, but just thinking about those, those dichotomies as binary start really early.
April: 12:47
They don't they yeah. Wow, we've talked about this before, but I think it's so important that there does seem to be a lot of parallels with queer identity or LGBTQ plus Identity and being highly sensitive and, like you said, they're not directly correlated. Right, there's no causation between the two, not that I know of, and I know you've done more research on it. Can we dive in and talk a little bit more about the parallels you talked about?
April: 13:09
you know the self-protection piece and I know, yeah, a little bit about the coming out experience as both revealing those parts of yourselves. What do you see is the parallels between these two parts of yourself?
Brian: 13:21
Hmm, I can see where there are similarities. I feel called to say they don't think they're the same. I think they're very different is specifically Systemically. Lgbtq plus folks are literally fighting for their lives at this time in our country and then everywhere else. But yeah, I remember when I was in grad school and I was looking at parallels, I had this hunch. I was like I bet there's more highly sensitive LGBTQ plus people in the community and in I don't know that's. Maybe this is part of me wanted to prove that or something. Never did, but but I I in doing that, as you do research, you start to look to what's out there and I just was looking at all of it and then looking at it side by side and the things that stuck out to me are there's maybe higher prevalence to experiencing more mental health challenges in both communities. I know this to be more researched, but it's more anecdotal for hsp but more research for LGBTQ plus folks that being inclined to or using more psychotherapy services.
Brian: 14:15
And I guess I got really interested To think about what does it mean to be both. What does it mean to be a highly sensitive person and somebody in the queer community? Because as a highly sensitive person you have differential susceptibility. How I like to distill it is that you can feel the positive stuff Even more so than a non highly sensitive person, but you can also experience the negative stuff even more negatively than the non highly sensitive person. So I imagine a queer person Experiencing social or familial ostracism, marginalization, stigma, what that must feel as a sensitive person, and getting really interested in how they might be impacted even more because of these two things. But then on the flip side because I don't want to just stay in the dark there Is that what is their capacity to feel queer, joyed, right, that community is going to mean that much more Things like pride are going to feel that much more positive or beneficial or affirming? I thought about and continue to think about a lot is what is it like to have those two Identities and what it could mean?
April: 15:19
What does it mean to have both, and how are they connected or related to each other?
Brian: 15:23
Also thinking about. What is the percentage of the population now we think it's 20 to 30 percent be highly sensitive and I know that number for LGBTQ plus folks is Getting larger, but it's lower. There are a lot more hsp's in the world and there are folks that are Identifying as a part of the queer community.
April: 15:40
Yeah, what's important about that for you?
Brian: 15:42
P's are one out of four. It's it's a minority, but it's still a lot of people. There's more likelihood we're finding each other and it's not something that's picked out socially as something that is seen as bad or immoral or less than there are ways in which it is, but not overtly, where it's not being legislated against, being criminalized, or that you're not a target for, in some ways, people who are LGBTQ plus and highly sensitive. Are there ways that I think you named it a while ago Sensitivity gets hidden, or is there permission to be sensitive? I think that actually extends itself to a lot of different identities, races, genders and sexualities. But how do we understand sensitivity? For me, I understand it's through a very specific lens, and are we not making room for a lot of the way sensitivity is expressed because we don't really study it In these other ways?
April: 16:34
There's lots of different ways it's expressed and maybe we don't always recognize it Are you talking about specific populations or just specific individuals.
Brian: 16:42
How I've learned about being highly sensitive is through a lot of the literature and the scientific research which I just have to understand is from a very specific lens and that lens being white, cisgender, heterosexual, more often than not largely female lens, we've understood sensitivity as expressed through those identities. Right, that's how it's conceptualized. So we may not know that a person is highly sensitive because it doesn't come in that box. And I remember inviting a black colleague of mine to one of our groups and we had a deep breath afterward and I'd ask what her experience was like. I don't remember verbatim what she said, but she's expressed growing up sensitive.
Brian: 17:22
Who has permission to be sensitive in these spaces? Does sensitivity look the same for her as it does for the other people in the group, and is space being made for that? I remember having that conversation and it really struck me because we expected to show up this way and we bond over the ways it shows up. But it could be showing up in all these plethora of other ways, but we don't see it that way because we don't see it as this one thing.
April: 17:46
For only seeing it through this one very specific lens.
Brian: 17:50
Yeah.
April: 17:51
White cishet females. This is true of in a lot of different cases, with research and representation. You're seeing a very specific lens, and the HSP community is not immune to that. There's a lot of work to be done to include intersectionality in our conversations and the different ways that sensitivity is expressed in different communities or even different individuals, but we've only seen this one very specific way. And there's so many ways that sensitivity shows up, we may not even be recognizing it.
April: 18:23
And then we're missing opportunities to connect over. It is what I hear you say.
Brian: 18:27
Yeah, and she's thinking about it from another lens is that it can be so gendered. Where I know in my work with cisgender males, I think you and I know that when people take the self-test, men tend to score lower because a lot of the questions are socialized in this way. They don't answer in the affirmative for a lot of things and sometimes they're told take the test, the child test. I even think about when I've worked with highly sensitive men where we're seen as this monolith, highly sensitive people. But I've made more and more space for noticing that sensitivity can actually show up as irritability, can actually show up as anger and we think of it as a soft, very empathetic, very welcoming kind of gentle energy. And who's to say that is not also highly sensitive? It's just, it's a way that the trait shows up and I don't know, maybe there's more permission to express irritability for men or anger, because that feels more. There's more permission in order to access that versus some of the other stuff.
April: 19:23
Exactly so. That could be the representation of sensitivity for someone.
Brian: 19:28
Yeah.
April: 19:29
If you looked at it on paper you would never think that was sensitivity. Let's say there's a young boy who's sensitive and struggles with anger or irritability or even distraction or whatever it is. They're getting sent down an ADHD path. They're getting sent to anger management. They're not getting sent to nervous system care and learning about their emotions and appreciating all the layers of their experience. We just can get completely thrown off track.
Brian: 19:58
I know, for some cultures too thinking about the one that I grew up in does sensitivity show up as stoutness? Does it show up as shutting down? There's just so many possibilities and I feel like sometimes we're lonely looking at a few.
April: 20:12
Exactly, it's so limited. You mentioned the community you grew up in. Would you like to share more about that community or how sensitivity is treated in your community?
Brian: 20:21
Yeah, both my parents are from Mexican descent, so my dad's first generation, my mom's a couple generations Mexican-American.
Brian: 20:29
So, I don't have the whole story of sensitivity thought out. I'm always constantly thinking back and looking at it, but I know that there is which I don't think is that unfamiliar for a lot of folks that the expression of emotions is not something that was allowed. Feeling anything other than obedience or just putting a smile on your face. There wasn't a lot of room for expressing anything that it wasn't agreeable. I ever felt the call to cry. It wasn't something that was really held with a lot of care or it was suck it up mentality I know specifically in my environment it was immediate goes to where other people have it worse.
Brian: 21:05
So you learn to invalidate that. Okay, if I take in the suffering of the world, I can't suffer. It feels like it's a lot of really just soldiering through, and I think about the immigrant experience and how much is it a part of my family's culture that there is a part of just soldiering through? Right, you can't really stop and think and what might be seen as self-indulgent to Naval gaze or look inward and do this stuff because we are thinking about how we're going to survive and that becomes intergenerationally passed on.
April: 21:34
Earlier you said who gets to lean into their sensitivity, who gets to express sensitivity, who gets to have a relationship with it.
Brian: 21:41
I never thought of this, but is claiming being highly sensitive a privilege?
April: 21:46
I would say it is. Yeah, I have always thought that it's a privilege We've been in community together in person and online who shows up there the most.
Brian: 21:55
For sure, yeah, it's very apparent to me yeah, yeah, and even thinking about our own privilege is our ability to say that Even my ability to exist in some of these spaces because I pass as white, depending on who's asking, or I don't think this, but I pass as straight, whatever that means, I'm able to exist in these spaces because I don't stand out sometimes, which give or take the environment we're in. That those are going to be privileges. Or just even being able to go to grad school, access podcasts, all of these things, the access to knowledge and information.
April: 22:28
Yeah, exactly yeah. A lot of that is not available and it speaks to how much work we have to do in our HSP community. A lot of communities to expand. Who gets to be in the community?
Brian: 22:41
I've been thinking about that a lot in the last couple of years because I've had a little bit of disillusionment, in a way that maybe a lot of us have a sort of reckoning where for me, in the highly sensitive person community, or maybe as it relates to therapists, because that's the community I have more proximity to. I remember in May 2020, june 2020, when the Black Lives Matter is really at a height again and George Floyd gets murdered, I remember seeing in communities and online that, specifically amongst highly sensitive people, I hear things like oh, I can't look at the news, it's too much, or I'm too sensitive for this. And I remember some of those conversations being really activating, and it's only recently dawn on me that a fragility can get confused for sensitivity. Yes, I'm not saying you need to look at the news all the time, but being able to look away from some of these issues is a privilege and there's some of us that can't.
Brian: 23:34
So when I go to these community events and it's a sea of predominantly white faces, while it may not always be intentional, I don't think it's accidental that someone may not have the right to do that, but I don't think if someone was putting intention and mindfulness and trying to create impact. I don't think they would just end up as all the same identities cis, white, het people but I still see these. Hey, come to this highly sensitive retreat and it's just the same catalog of folks and I just come on. I know we're out there, I know there's other folks out there. I'm getting on the soapbox here, but I think making more of these spaces inclusive is raising black indigenous voices of color and that takes effort and it is uncomfortable and you have to lean into that. I can't speak for other folks. I know the work can be uncomfortable, but I think that's where that fragility piece comes in, just thinking about the work we have to do to make spaces more welcoming.
April: 24:29
You're right that the fragility piece does get confused with sensitivity, and it can be the go-to response. I just can't do it. I think we're actually selling ourselves short as highly sensitive people, because we are actually very resilient.
Brian: 24:43
Yeah, I love that.
April: 24:45
We have a lot to bring to the table and everyone suffers if we disengage. Because we are the seers right, we are the canaries in the coal mine, so to speak. So we need to keep our eyes open. Now I don't think it's sustainable to keep our eyes open in the way modern media operates. Like you said, you don't have to see everything all the time, but do take in what's happening at some level in a simple way, instead of just turning off completely.
April: 25:16
I think it's important to stay engaged, but figure out how you can do that.
Brian: 25:20
I remember attending a virtual workshop that our colleague Sydney James did. I think it was titled being Highly Sensitive While Black Sorry, Sydney, if I'm not getting the title that workshop right. It was a couple of years ago, but something that stood out to me that's so useful is as a highly sensitive person. She had said, and paraphrasing, when it comes to activist pursuits, what's within our capacity and I get that, your honoring sensitivity, and maybe it is about figuring out what is in our capacity. Does searching for more people to be in our community, if you like that's within our capacity and like that, just the content we're consuming. Who are the voices that we're listening to?
Brian: 25:56
Something for me personally that I've been doing is, when it comes to any personal reading. I don't read books by white authors anymore. If I do read a book by a white author, they're usually LGBTQ plus. Thinking about going into book clubs, am I making space for content written by other voices of color? Things like that? Those are just small, to me very digestible ways that activism can show off that, as a sensitive person feels within my capacity. Are there times that I'm on the street in a protest? Sure, is that all the time? No, do I want to be there. Hell, yes, I think you're in our very aligned and our values. But I think, as a therapist, a lot of my activism shows up there and I think a lot of the conversations you and I are having or the conversation I'm having with the clients who come and see me, and I'm very upfront about that. I guess in that way, for me the personal and the political aren't really separate.
April: 26:47
And you bring up such a good point that there are accessible ways to move the needle as sensitive people right. We're not always going to be on the front lines. That's not what we're really wired for. I was on the front lines a lot in my 20s, but now in my 40s, not so much.
Brian: 27:03
Yeah, you gotta also honor your body and where you are Exactly. That's so true, yeah.
April: 27:08
There are ways being mindful and intentional about what you consume books, media, what workshops you participate in, who you reach out to for community, how can we stretch a little? How can we stay engaged? How can we make this community better and safer and more inclusive?
Brian: 27:25
Yeah, I think I remember reading in the Highly Sensitive Person book there is, in the second chapter, a list of attributes and one of them is oriented towards social justice and conscientiousness. And I remember thinking, oh my God, we're all the same, these things are so important to us, and I catch myself. I may make this error. It's a human error where I think we're all created the same. Like HSP, I used to think we're a monolith, and I know now we're not, but that we still can be oriented towards those things. But they may show up differently and we are very much products of our culture, so we're very impacted by that. Peace can be really powerful critical thinkers, and we're better than to think critically than about all of these issues that relate to equity, equality, diversity and inclusiveness. I think our minds are very useful here. It is important. How do we call upon our resilience in these times?
April: 28:14
You need it more than ever.
Brian: 28:16
Yeah.
April: 28:16
It's a tragedy because I think a lot of times we do fall victim to the fragility, to the overwhelm and all of the reasons we're here. Elaine Aron talks about this a lot. We have an evolutionary purpose for being highly sensitive. It's not just random, but we believe that we don't have value or we believe that we're just doomed to feel overwhelmed at the time and then we just can't engage in the world. That's a big problem, because we do have a purpose the healers, the seers, the decision makers critical thinkers, we have a lot to offer.
April: 28:47
So do other people, the non-HSEs as well. It's a compliment, it's a partnership, yeah.
Brian: 28:52
Symbiotic yes.
April: 28:53
Symbiotic, exactly, exactly. But I think we need to recognize that we own our worth as sensitive people and also tolerate sensitivity show of you in different ways and in different forms. It's not just one thing which we've been led to believe, I think.
Brian: 29:14
I guess the parts of me that get cynical or really curious is oh, is it accidental that in a world filled with more stimulation and more technology, that we're more exhausted and we're unable to detach from phones? I don't think that's always accidental. What I mean by that is that, yeah, we're feeling more depleted than ever, we're feeling capitalists and has us all drained and in competition constantly. Just, I think we're all in chronic overrousal. Now we're grappling with all these sort of struggles around attention and social stuff. It's my way of saying that. I also think sometimes this is in our fault, as well as products of the world we live into which can make it harder for sensitive folks to master the energy I hear a lot of sensitive people just can see being sensitive as a stabilization because it's just I'm always fried. Yeah, can seen that way.
April: 30:03
If that was one of your clients or one of your friends and they're saying I'm always fried, I can't do anything, what?
Brian: 30:08
do you?
April: 30:08
say in response to that. So I want to have empathy and I also want to empower that person personally. I'm just curious what your approach would be.
Brian: 30:14
I think I would validate the hell out of that right. Yes and I think this is a conversation we have often is what feels possible, what is within your capacity. I'm hearing their parts to you that want to make a difference or want to help. How do we honor those parts, make room for them? I'm also honoring the parts of you that are sensitive, that are tired, that are feeling kaput in some way and or taking stock of. I think sometimes, when we talk with highly sensitive people, one of the tenants is living a lifestyle that's congruent with your trait. So maybe we got to look at some of the stuff you're participating in. Is that sustainable? Is your job sustainable? I can think of a lot of things relationship, all of these things that are these sustainable? Or all these sorts of things that are stealing a lot of gas from your engines, so to speak.
April: 30:58
Mm. What a great metaphor. Yeah, yeah.
Brian: 31:00
I like to think a lot about what's so funny because we're talking about technology, talking with HSPs is you have a phone battery. Every day it starts. If you're lucky, it started charged overnight and you got 100, but that thing needs to be recharged right and, like certain things, are going to take out more juice than the other. And are you actually that's something we come back to are you recharging your battery and are you going to go to this party or this work event on a 10%? You're in the red. It's probably not going to be at your best then.
April: 31:29
Yeah, you're not. I always think, though about is recharging also a privilege?
Brian: 31:35
True, yeah, my drop there. That was good. Yeah, it is. I think it can be, cause there's this whole thing where sometimes I, even now, when I say the phrase self care, I'm like, oh, that part of me irks a little, cause I'm like that feels very privileged. That became so popular in culture for a little while and now it does what people were describing as self care. I'm totally generalizing, but they're like get a massage, get a facial, go to therapy, do these things, and I just think about how much money each of those things cost.
April: 32:04
Exactly yeah, but I think what you're also saying is what is in your control within what you have available Is that what you're saying? Yeah, it's not about going to the fancy spa or getting a massage or taking off work for a vacation, but can you make small choices, even throughout the day, within what's in your control?
Brian: 32:25
Yeah, lifestyle shifts. The phrase that's been coming into my mind a lot in the work is thinking about breaking patterns. And, yeah, where there are certain patterns here that we can break to make some changes, I just think about, like, when someone goes through something and maybe they've gotten on the other side of that challenge, I think about are there reserves of energy that are available because that thing is now behind you? Yeah, that's how we take care of ourselves and all of this. Or just when everything feels so hard yeah, I struggle with that too.
Brian: 32:54
There's a voice in my head that says you know what would be available to you if you just got out of social media? And I don't feel like I have the most egregious habits, but I'm human and I'm on it hours a day and that feels hard for me because there's a part of me that feels like I'm going to lose connection to what's going on and I feel like that's really important from an activist perspective. But I know, as a therapist I would be telling myself does it mean we can't have some boundaries? That doesn't mean we can't have some limitations, and I know that we all could benefit from stuff like that, these little shifts and breaking of the pattern, there's a way for me to still connect it and find out information on the ground without having to be in it eight hours a day.
April: 33:35
Exactly, yeah With breaking patterns in small ways, but also more impactful ways.
Brian: 33:40
Yeah, I like that yeah.
April: 33:42
Oh, that's good. If you could share one message with HSPs who are trying to shift those patterns, whether it's internally or on a bigger scale, and they're looking for a community. What would the message be?
Brian: 33:54
This question around community. It feels like such a big theme globally right now and it feels like in my work it feels like this comes up a lot with folks when is community? How do we find it? Where is it created and fostered? And I'm speaking of being online.
Brian: 34:09
I'm so privy to articles about people writing from this perspective of how the social has changed in the pandemic, where people spending more time on their own or community space is having shifted away. So I feel like it's not easy. I know that it's something that I'm figuring that out for myself. I've had a lot of my friends move away and because of my values and my views, some of my relationships don't fit my life anymore and there's lots of grief. I think we're all navigating some of that.
Brian: 34:36
But I guess maybe for HSPs finding community around other HSPs I think that's one of the 10, that's right of the HSP care right Be around other HSPs and I think that's really great it can be hard, I think, as we're waiting for more things to come back in person and vivo might be hard to find a HSP branded thing or organized thing.
Brian: 34:57
But I think sometimes if we're only looking for other highly sensitive people, we may lose out on the opportunity to just deeply connect with people who are just good people or make us feel the way about ourselves.
Brian: 35:08
So I would say, trying to surround yourself with people who honor those sensitive parts of you, the deep thinking, the conscientious I'm saying this with some kind of humor the neurotic parts of you, if you call that that like the overthinking parts.
Brian: 35:20
There are probably people out there in your life or could be in your life that just make you feel good and make you feel seen and connected, and they don't necessarily have to be highly sensitive or identify as an HSP, but doesn't mean we shouldn't appreciate and honor and invite those people into our lives. And I think some of the older tried ways of finding people that align with your interests can be a way or access to that. And I will say, though, it does take time and investment, because you may want to go to something once and say I didn't connect with anyone there, and a community takes time and it takes consistency. It may take showing up to a place repeatedly as a sensitive person. If you're introverted, it may take courage to walk up to someone and it may not happen the first time you meet them. Those are my thoughts lately about socializing and building community.
April: 36:09
I appreciate that the remainder of that community does take time and it's okay to give yourself permission to slowly ease in, especially if you're more sensitive introvert, or you're figuring out the spaces you feel most comfortable in or where you might find people like yourself.
Brian: 36:23
Maybe places like churches, schools or working in person which I know has changed for some folks from working from home or being remote, if that's something you can do, or maybe you're in spaces with people more consistently and that's how community can form. But maybe I notice adults have challenge of building friends because we lose some of those things from the earlier years of frameworks of communities that are already in place for us.
April: 36:46
Right, it's true, we don't have as much built-in as we do, especially as things start to change and go more online or, where you're working, more remotely.
Brian: 36:57
Yeah, not that I was ever making friends in groceries or anything or restaurants. Okay, everything's deliverable now.
April: 37:05
Yeah, sure, the chance is just to go home, though I do want to highlight what you said around. Let's say you don't fit the typical HSP mode. That it's more about how you feel with someone. Do you feel seen and connected and you can really show up and feel safe? That's more important than the person identifies as an HSP.
Brian: 37:25
Yeah.
April: 37:25
It's more. Can your sensitive part show up? Can your whole self show?
Brian: 37:28
up. Yeah, in this little anecdote that I, when I do present a couple of conferences I've done and we'll talk about personal stories to make the very science-heavy stuff relatable is this person, who's a family friend, ended just passing away. I think it was last year, but I remember being a really young kid, maybe between the ages of nine through my teenage years, but we had a family friend that would constantly either pick me up or me and some of my siblings up to go to the movies and I as a kid just was obsessed with everything related to cinema. So what, I went to undergrad for the first time. It's just still in love with movies, just love them and just love talking about them. Most of my HSP sensitivity parts come out around this, because I'll talk about it deeply. After I go to the film. I'm thinking about it for days, I'm reading reviews, I just process so deeply and I love it.
Brian: 38:13
This person used to take me just me, to be like, oh, we're gonna go to the movies, you wanna come with us and would just love to hear me talk. And when asked me my opinions on something and was like, oh, this is coming out, we wanna take you to see it. And I just remember being like oh, that was the one place where it was just about me. I'm one of five kids, so it was just about me and it's yeah, this person really connects and appreciates the side of me and I think that person whether they knew it or not, I remember seeing them shortly before they passed and I had such gratitude because I remember that, through the framework of my sensitivity, that this person was such a positive figure for me and it didn't look like what we think it looks like, but I had this deep connection with this person and it was a life raft when I was a kid.
April: 38:58
Yeah, they saw something in you and then they nourished it.
Brian: 39:02
Yes, that's a beautiful way of saying it. Yeah, nourished it for sure. I didn't feel any shame or otherness around it. It really impacted me in a really great way.
April: 39:11
Yeah, I can tell you were just lighting up.
Brian: 39:13
Yeah, yes, yeah, it's a good memories.
April: 39:19
Leaning into those people that Do give you nourishment, that give you that life raft, that help you feel seen, regardless of how they identify or if they're sensitive or not. It's more about how do you feel when you're with them.
Brian: 39:32
I think yeah, yeah, and if we don't have those people in our lives currently inviting the intention into creating Spaces for those people are creating spaces for those relationships because I think they're important. The HSP community when lockdown happened around the pandemic, I remember hearing people say, yay, I love it, I don't have to deal with people, and I think that didn't last very long because we're all social creatures. We need people to survive. We die in isolation. Even introverts need people, and so I just say that and saying that, just a reminder that we guess well, alone time and downtime is so valuable to the HSP, but people are just as valuable.
April: 40:13
People are just as valuable, and it's not that we needed less people. I think it's. We needed more Decompression mm-hmm, Mm-hmm and we got that and now it's where's the community?
Brian: 40:24
Yeah, yeah, I feel like I'm seeing people trying to learn to walk again. How are we social again?
April: 40:32
exactly. Yeah, it's like we're reacclimating, learning it for the first time almost, and needing to build Systems back up for a community as if they never existed in the first place. You're right feels hard.
Brian: 40:45
I do, and then you're tired all the time. It's just yeah, it's that what's difficult.
April: 40:50
Exactly it is. Yeah it is and hopefully we can start to shift that. But I think what we're saying is where can we take it, some initiative and Create spaces that we want to have around in the world With our little bits of energy left over?
Brian: 41:05
right, yes, yeah right.
April: 41:08
Any final thoughts before we wrap up?
Brian: 41:11
When people are just coming to understand the trait, like I remember. For me there was this energy of it. It felt very urgent. Yes, and I think you had asked me before we. We talked about what's changed in your relationship of sensitivity and I thought about that.
Brian: 41:26
Doesn't feel as urgent, which is nice, because it feels like it's integrated in a way, and the practice of being a highly sensitive person just feels like an Imperfect practice. And what I mean by that is that I did a lot in my life to honor the lifestyle or honor the trait In a way that feels compatible. But sometimes it don't get it perfect. Sometimes I'm overwhelmed and I'm irritated because I didn't do all the things I supposed to. But with this knowledge, I think a lot of it feels a little bit more seamless. Things like transitions are so important, but now they're baked into everything. It's automatic in a way that maybe in the past they would question that. Now it's. It is non-negotiable most times. But I don't think about it anymore because it's just the way I operate now. Yeah, so it doesn't feel so urgent because I just don't push it in the way that I used to.
April: 42:12
I know what you mean when you say you've baked in some transitions. I'm curious if you can give an example of that.
Brian: 42:17
Yeah.
April: 42:17
I love this I love this.
Brian: 42:19
I know the. I think it's such a great example of talking about how early do you arrive to the airport or something. It can be airport substitute, event substitute thing. But I noticed in relationships like why there's often one person who likes to get there an hour before and they're I'm the person I want to get there three hours before.
April: 42:38
Same.
Brian: 42:39
I Love to. Oh, I don't want to wait around. I'm like that's great, I'd love to go look for a magazine and waste money on candy like things. I don't need them. That is a part of the journey. But it's also because I know for me I'm not my best self or in my highest self, or my nervous system doesn't feel Regulated when I'm rushing and that is through everything. Even before we signed on today, I was grateful that I had an hour. I Thinking about it even earlier this morning it's been on my mind it's gonna be very gentle as I come in, I'm gonna be in the seat, as they say, to be ready, and so I just feel like that is just such a practice. I leave time before appointments, before Getting anywhere, but I've always done that and now I'm just giving myself more permission. Just be that way. And some people comment on it and I just don't care.
April: 43:27
Living it right. You see how good it is for your nervous system.
Brian: 43:29
Yeah, and I think other people benefit from it. I will say they really do and they pretend they don't, but they do, they benefit from it, I'm a planner that I'm Thinking ahead, worrying a little more than maybe most folks, yeah.
April: 43:44
I love getting to the airport early to baked in Slowing downtime. Oh yeah, everything else just shuts off. You're at the airport, you can't do anything else.
Brian: 43:52
I'm packing for a trip five days before mentally, yeah, oh yeah. Those are just like small ways it shows up and for me, transitions I've always been a cornerstone of sensitivity for me. I think they are for a lot of neurodivergent folks too.
April: 44:06
So yeah, I agree just having that space to integrate in and then move out. It's so important, right? Because you there's so much processing. Yeah, you need to, like you said, bake in time. For that it's such a good example. Those things that feel maybe out of reach or other people just don't understand or push back on, eventually they become Psycho nature.
Brian: 44:27
Yeah, yeah.
April: 44:28
I'm the same way. I like to have a lot of time between things and it's so important. And, yes, do I maybe do less or I cram less into the day? Yes, but it's More balance at the end.
Brian: 44:40
Yeah, I also think I want to honor good old age too. I've also. That's also natural too. I think Elaine Aron even talks about that in one of the books, pointing out that maybe don't notice sensitivity in your earlier years because you're just. The call of age is much more out and stimulating and we all maybe hit a shift sometime. That definitely happened to me.
April: 45:00
Me too. It's true, because in your teens and twenties you're primed for socializing, mating and all of those really deep instinctual urges, and yet those aren't present as you age Makes sense that then the sensitivity Shifts a bit right. Thank you so much for this conversation. I really appreciate it. If folks want to find out more about you, where can they do that?
Brian: 45:23
My website that you can find out or just reach out to me there. It's my first name in my last name, but Brian Torres Therapy.com, just where everything is the easiest way to Get in touch.
April: 45:41
Thanks so much for joining me and Brian for today's conversation. What I hope you'll remember is that sensitivity doesn't look the same for everyone and however, the trait presents for you is completely valid. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the sensitive stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSP resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow sensitive strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitive stories calm for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening you.
