07: Slowly Stepping Out of Your Comfort Zone to Feel More Fulfilled
With Lori Cangilla, PhD
In this episode, I enjoyed sitting down with Lori Cangilla, PhD to explore:
• Overcoming the ambivalence of being highly sensitive to find more meaning
• Balancing commitments to others to get the right amount of quiet time for your sensitive nervous system
• The importance of solitude to calm overstimulation
• Needing variety to feel fully fulfilled as a more high sensation seeking HSP
• The difference between performance anxiety and imposter syndrome
• Difficulties of not feeling good enough
• Importance of taking tiny steps out of your comfort zone
Lori is a licensed psychologist specializing in helping creative, gifted, and highly sensitive people. Her Singularly Sensitive approach combines journaling, mindfulness, and behavioral experiments to help people create lives of meaning and purpose. Lori is the author of the guided journal Wander and Delve.
Keep in touch with Lori:
• Website: http://www.singularlysensitive.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/SingularlySensitive
Other Resources:
• Self-Study Course for Performance Anxiety + Imposter Syndrome designed to get you taking small, sustainable actions toward your creative and performance dreams. It includes a 40+ page workbook, videos, and 30+ multi-part journal prompts to help you reach your goals. https://www.singularlysensitive.com/performance-anxiety-imposter-syndrome-course
• Wander and Delve Journal: https://www.singularlysensitive.com/wander-and-delve
Thanks for listening!
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Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/sensitivestrengths
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Lori Cangilla: 0:00
highly sensitive people have learned to cover up or to mask their sensitivity, and so when we have experience doing that, it's really easy for that to flip into an imposter syndrome.
April Snow: 0:21
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as a deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Lori Candila about overcoming the ambivalence of being highly sensitive to find more meaning, the importance of balancing engagement and solitude to feel truly fulfilled, and the differences between performance, anxiety and imposter syndrome. Lori is a licensed psychologist specializing in helping creative, gifted and highly sensitive people. Her singularly sensitive approach combines journaling, mindfulness and behavior experiments to help people create lives of meaning and purpose. Lori is the author of the guided journal Wander and Delve.
April Snow: 1:20
For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at sensitive strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. So, lori, if we could start off by you telling me your HSP discovery story. How? When did you discover that you're a highly sensitive person? So I've probably always known that I was a highly sensitive person.
Lori Cangilla: 2:16
I was definitely the kid who heard from every adult in her life oh, don't be so sensitive, don't cry, that's not a big deal, all that stuff. And I'm solidly Gen X, so sensitivity was not okay, and especially in a family that was like I'm half British, half German, so the stiff upper lip was very important and I grew up stuffing that down for a lot of my life. And it wasn't until I was in graduate school when I happened to come across some of Elaine Aaron's early studies on what is this thing called high sensitivity. And it wasn't through a class, it just was something that I don't know how exactly. It popped up in my searches at some point. But I read it and thought, oh, that's what I am, I'm not just too sensitive, I'm not just too lost in my head all the time.
Lori Cangilla: 3:07
I don't have like bad boundaries because I care about everything. I am highly sensitive. And even then it took a long time to really start to see that research and that early conceptualization of highly sensitive people start to emerge. But it definitely put the gas pedal down a little bit for saying, okay, there are other people like this and this is no flaw or something they need to try to hide or do away with.
April Snow: 3:32
Yeah, especially when we grow up in families who don't personally experience sensitivity or maybe have a view that it's a weakness or that we need to tough it up. It can be really hard to lean into it. A lot of people will say I knew I was sensitive before I knew what it was. Was that your experience too? We kind of understand something's going on.
Lori Cangilla: 3:53
Yeah, yeah, very much, and it was one of those things where I might have shared a little bit of that sensitivity With certain friends over the years, but I was never going to advertise it and it certainly wasn't something I brought to my family, because they really just, even to this day, don't quite understand. They're more willing to acknowledge that yes, it's a thing, but they aren't really. They don't have any lived experience of it. So it's really hard for them to grasp. Yeah, it's hard when we, especially with the highly sensitive experience being a lot of.
April Snow: 4:23
It is very nuanced and it's not really a good thing. It's being a lot of. It is very nuanced and not obvious to someone who doesn't live in a highly sensitive body. So they're accepting but they can't, which makes sense. They can't quite understand what your experience is day to day.
Lori Cangilla: 4:42
Yeah, Any more than I can experience and really imagine what it's like to be not highly sensitive to. I can look at it from afar and I have a sense of what it would be like, but I don't have that lived experience to share.
April Snow: 4:55
It's true. Yeah, so coming up in that family that's less sensitive or is not highly sensitive, how has your relationship with your sensitivity shifted as you learn more about the traits and I know that you've done a lot of work to understand the research and the complexities of the trait how is your relationship with the change the more that you learn?
Lori Cangilla: 5:18
I think the more I learned, the easier it becomes to be more accepting of the trait and in myself and I have a son who's also highly sensitive, so to see it in him and be really it's easier for me to be accepting of it and embracing of it in him even. But I think for a lot of years there was a way that I was tremendously ambivalent about being sensitive. Even once I got over that initial excitement of seeing it in print oh, there are other people like me. It still took me a long time to not go through my experiences thinking, oh, this would be so much better if I weren't so sensitive. And to really. I think with time I've also really come to appreciate particularly my creative side and my appreciation for aesthetics and that has grown so much and becomes such a meaningful part of what sensitivity is now, and I think that has made it easier to accept being highly sensitive as well.
April Snow: 6:18
So, as you're expanding your view of all the different parts of your sensitivity, you're realizing oh yes, it would be easier in some ways if I wasn't, as I'll just put some words in you tell me if they're right or wrong, emotional or aware or perceptive, but you're realizing actually there's all these other parts about having a trait, like being impacted by your aesthetics and your environment that maybe make it worth it.
Lori Cangilla: 6:45
Yeah, for me it has really shifted. I don't know if I always think in terms of a scale, but it's definitely as I've grown more comfortable with my sensitivity and I think, as I've just gotten older to and learn more skills, but with more people have more life to draw on, I think it's a lot easier to say yeah, the good parts of being highly sensitive do outweigh the things that I've had to work around or scaffold some skills or some lifestyle choices.
April Snow: 7:13
I'm curious if you could give an example of what those skills or lifestyle choices might be? If so, if that maybe someone else might feel inspired by, yeah.
Lori Cangilla: 7:28
So in terms of skills, I really I think my graduate school professors who insisted we learn a little bit about CBT even though I was not in a CBT heavy program, because that was really beneficial at helping me to sometimes just slow my thoughts. I never really bought into the idea of distortion or like that feels dishonoring of people's experiences, but I think the idea that I could step back from my experiences and look at them in different ways was really helpful. Learning to do that more effectively and more quickly when I'd be having a reaction was certainly a great skill for feeling less like my sensitivity was. My sensitivity was what I led with like the first thing that showed up in an interaction, especially with people, so that, like skills-wise, that was really beneficial.
April Snow: 8:21
Make sense just to take a moment, step back, take some perspective, instead of getting maybe lost in the storm of it all. Yes, it's easy to do that.
Lori Cangilla: 8:32
Absolutely yeah, and I don't want to make it sound like I completely mastered that, because we can all get lost in the storm. But it's certainly easier to do now with practice than it was when I first started Nice.
April Snow: 8:45
yeah, it makes a big difference.
Lori Cangilla: 8:48
And then, as far as lifestyle goes, I think, learning more about what works for me in terms of like over the course of a week maybe, how much time I need for solitude and quiet and how much social energy I can push and making some choices around. How do I balance commitments to people and organizations and including my job, but also make sure that there's plenty for me, that I'm not just giving myself like whatever scraps are left over, but being much more intentional in how I schedule my time and my activities.
April Snow: 9:27
It's so easy just to give yourself the scraps, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, and so, being more intentional about that, how much solitude, quiet, would you say you're giving yourself on an average day or an average week? What does that look like?
Lori Cangilla: 9:41
You probably a couple of hours a day if I don't get it, and sometimes that is a big if.
Lori Cangilla: 9:47
Sometimes getting it means getting up early before the rest of the house holds up and trying to claim that time as mine. But I know, if I don't do that for a few days or a week I really start to feel that imbalance. You know, I think ideally I would love to have more of that solitude. I juggle with a family, a practice which I don't know. That's like a lot going on. I don't necessarily feel like I have my ideal amount of solitude, but I've learned that even just a couple of hours a day makes a huge difference.
April Snow: 10:21
It really does. Just having that time to decompress, to process, come back to yourself what do I need? How am I doing? Makes a big difference.
Lori Cangilla: 10:32
Yeah, for me it's that idea of for those couple of hours there's no real new input coming in. I go to my comfy spot. It's quiet, it's dark, I like it, I have it set up for myself and so it's really easy just to sit with what's there and process through it without anything new coming at me at the same time.
April Snow: 10:54
That's such a good point. It's like just slowing the input down. We're very spongy a sensitive people. We've taken a lot of just details around us other people's emotions, different interactions and thinking about everything that's going on, what needs to happen, who needs what. Just to stop that for a little while, just to catch up with what you've already taken in, is really important and, like you're saying, you need that every day, which is, I would say, what most or all HSPs need. I know some HSPs need more than others, but I'm curious if there's ways that you maybe don't fit the mold in the HSP.
Lori Cangilla: 11:32
Yeah so. I'm one of those HSPs, even though I'm introverted and I hate things like horror movies and how is a nightmare for me. But I am a high sensation seeking, highly sensitive person, so routines are hard for me. I don't know this about you.
Lori Cangilla: 11:49
Yeah, no, and I'm really good at creating routines and I'm terrible at sticking with them, because I get bored and I love going back to familiar places if I'm traveling, but I really also I need to do something new, even if I go somewhere familiar. So for me I'm not super high on that high sensation seeking scale, but I definitely have enough of that where sometimes I'll listen to other HSPs I know and they'll talk about having very predictable routines and that is not something that works for me. So even when I try it, then I end up undercutting it and changing it because, like I said, I get bored with it.
April Snow: 12:28
Yeah, that's what you do here often. Right For HSPs like oh, set up a consistent routine, take out the decision fatigue, make things as familiar as possible. But yeah, at some level for a lot of HSPs that could get boring or monotonous. You can start to feel stuck in it. You need to shake things up a bit every once in a while.
Lori Cangilla: 12:49
Yeah, I think there is a way that it's an under stimulation for me where I just need to introduce a little bit of some. So if I can take the decision fatigue out and maybe just have a menu of things that I choose, from Ooh, I like that that works for me.
Lori Cangilla: 13:04
sometimes it's just enough novelty to feel like I'm. I have three different things that I like, three different meals I like to make for breakfast and I have one of those. I don't have to have the same breakfast every day and it's just enough variety to help me get through.
April Snow: 13:18
Right, just a little spicer of interest. Absolutely I'm curious now. So you're a therapist and you also do some consulting work and you've written a book and you've done quite a few things. Is that part of that excitement or stimulation seeking? Yeah, I think so.
Lori Cangilla: 13:37
Yeah, I think I definitely think so. I've never wanted to work in an environment where I only do one thing. Some of my early therapy jobs had a lot of variety in terms of the kinds of experiences I was doing, or maybe I was seeing a really wide population and I think that has always been really a good fit for me. Anything that, if I were seeing 25 clients all with similar issues, I don't think I'd serve the last 15 or a week or so. I need that variety.
April Snow: 14:09
Yeah, I think as deep processors, deep thinkers, we do need enough mental fuel coming in that's interesting and we can feel inspired by. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
Lori Cangilla: 14:21
I like thinking of it as mental fuel. I hadn't really thought of it in those terms, but I think that is what it does. It feels like fuel.
April Snow: 14:30
Yeah, that's how it feels for me. It's like something like a puzzle to work on or I don't know. It feels so nourishing for me when I get to wear a few different hats. Yeah, it keeps the right amount of stimulation coming in. Yeah, and I know in your work that you've started specializing in imposter syndrome, performance anxiety. Maybe that came out of personal experience.
Lori Cangilla: 14:56
I'm wondering if you could share a little bit about the differences Before we talk about your own experience.
April Snow: 15:03
what are the differences between the two? Because I think I often hear these two interchangeably used, but I think there is a difference. If you could explain to us what that is.
Lori Cangilla: 15:11
Yeah, In casual conversation people do use them very interchangeably and it probably doesn't matter, because if I'm sitting with someone and they say I have performance anxiety or have imposter syndrome, the first thing I'm going to do is ask them to tell me more about it so I get a sense of what they mean by that.
Lori Cangilla: 15:27
But when you look at the research on those two phenomena, they really are slightly different In that performance anxiety is much more about making mental comparisons Either I'm not as good as I should be, I think I should be, I'm not as good as other people are, but it's a comparative process and there's anxiety about not being able to perform at that high level that we want to. I usually think of imposter syndrome as like kicking it up to the next level, which is not only do I feel like I'm not doing well enough, but I feel like I fooled the whole world into believing that I'm somehow perpetuating this fraud, that I am this, whatever. I am a stellar therapist or I am a fabulous writer and I am the best cook who's ever worked at this restaurant. And with imposter syndrome, it's often paired with a lot of shame and that fear of somebody is going to find out, that fear of discovery.
Lori Cangilla: 16:34
While performance anxiety is oftentimes something no-transcript People will acknowledge pretty easily, what I find is that people often struggle to acknowledge their imposter syndrome because it does feel so personal. It feels like such a deep reflection of there's something wrong with me. Yes, and you're going to find out. It's only a matter of to find out that there's something wrong.
April Snow: 17:01
Hide that away as much as possible. Yeah, are HSPs more prone to these experiences? You mentioned performance anxiety. There's life anxiety with imposter syndrome. It's more about shame and wanting to hide away. I'm curious how do we then explain that HSPs are probably experiencing this more often than other people? I'm curious what the link is.
Lori Cangilla: 17:23
Yeah, for me I think it's because we're such deep processors and we take in so much information. So it's not uncommon when I talk with HSPs for them to have really elaborate stories and assessments of how they're doing in comparison to other people or their own internal benchmarking, and to have pretty expansive narratives around how they're really not as good as they are being perceived. And I think when we spend a lot of time in our head and our thoughts, it's easy to hook into those really juicy negative thoughts and run with them. And I think when you combine that with the way that as HSPs, we're probably noticing if one person in a crowd of 20 that we're talking to has an expression whether it's really about us or not, we're probably going oh, they're bored.
April Snow: 18:17
It's true. Yeah, we're picking up on all these little nuances and trying to make sense of them, trying to make meaning of them, and it's easy to think, oh, that's about me. Or perceive those signals in some way or another, which isn't always accurate, but it does. They can feed that anxiety. So if someone isn't having a great time when they're interacting with you or they're witnessing you perform a task, you might think, oh, I'm not good enough at this. If I was, they would be. I hear this from clients all the time. If I was better at this, other people would be having a better time or would be more drawn to me, or I'd be more successful, whatever it is. So, yeah, it's easy to internalize those external messages and run with it and our processing it's so hard.
Lori Cangilla: 19:01
It is. Yeah, I think it. I would almost be surprised if I met an HSP who genuinely never had either of those experiences, because it's so hard not to go through life without comparing ourselves and feeling some insecurity about how we're showing up in the world, and so, as an HSP, I feel like it's a real calm and pitfall fall of just how we're wired.
April Snow: 19:26
Mm-hmm, higgs, we're, we hear we. Oh. I think most of us have heard those messages from early lives. Sounds like you maybe did too Grype and more of a tough. You said it's like step up or limb kind of family and so you need to change this about yourself. Or this isn't good enough, or do it this way, or you're not feeling that way. All those different messages that are then the foundation for then more doubt later on.
Lori Cangilla: 19:50
Yeah, exactly Because I think there's often a way that highly sensitive people have learned to cover up or to mask their sensitivity and so when we have experience with doing that, it's really easy for that to flip into that imposter syndrome because we are aware that there's some truth to that idea, that people aren't seeing all of me, even if that's a choice I'm making. But it's easy then, when we're feeling pressured about something that's important to us or we're afraid of being evaluated in some way, for that to turn into really gnarly thoughts of imposter syndrome.
April Snow: 20:29
Yeah, we're either hiding away, self-protecting because we've heard negative messages before, or we feel like we don't measure up in some way, or we are showing ourselves and then people just aren't seeing it and then we are able. Oh, we feel missed or like something's not connecting. Oh, I'm just feeling heartbroken thinking about it when it's hard enough to put yourself out there as an HSP, but then you do and then people aren't able to see you so hard and I imagine that then feeds into more of this shame, this imposter syndrome, or even just putting yourself out there to begin with. Maybe you then pull away.
Lori Cangilla: 21:08
Yeah, I think that's why oftentimes a lot of the HSP's I talk to will say oh, I did this sort of public-facing kind of activity. I was on the sports team, I played music, I sang in a band. They did those things when they were younger and then at some point they stopped and so that's normal adult development. It happens. But I think for a lot of HSP's there is that sense of the world does not get me and I don't want to keep making myself vulnerable and putting myself out there. That's hard.
April Snow: 21:40
Yeah, yeah, it's so hard, especially when the risks are so high. As a deeply feeling person and you mentioned there's some obvious, I think, more what I would think when I'm thinking about imposter syndrome, you know, putting yourself out there, playing music, playing sports, maybe getting on a stage, performing in some way or another. But are there other types of experiences that would contribute to performance anxiety or imposter syndrome that maybe aren't related to performance in some way? Maybe it's at work or in relationships? I'm throwing this out there, just curious what your thoughts are.
Lori Cangilla: 22:16
Yeah, I think anytime where we're doing something that involves completing a task and being observed, there's that potential for performance anxiety. So certainly it comes up in relationships the first time someone takes a risk to speak up and communicate a feeling to a new partner or to set a boundary in a long-term relationship where there hasn't been a boundary before.
Lori Cangilla: 22:41
I think that those can be sources of performance anxiety. I work with a lot of people where their performance anxiety just comes out at work, like being how they lead a team meeting or how they give a presentation, or, in the early stage of the pandemic, a lot of people with a lot of anxiety about how am I on Zoom and what is that like for people. So really it can show up in a lot of different areas and but I think that where it hits people hardest is when it's something they really care about Not that HSPs tend to care to some extent about everything.
Lori Cangilla: 23:14
But I suppose if there was something I were doing that I don't really care what my lawn looks like, so the chagrin of my neighbors, I don't care. So I don't have any performance anxiety about oh, we tried something different with our lawn and it didn't work and now the lawn looks even worse than before. That doesn't stir anything up for me, but other things that I do care about even a little bit. There's that potential for those performance anxiety and imposter syndrome to show up.
April Snow: 23:38
Yeah, you mentioned a few important things there, which is one being observed in any task could evoke these feelings of anxiety or shame, and HSPs mostly struggle with this. That observation piece tends to unravel us a little bit and you're shaking your head.
Lori Cangilla: 23:54
Yes, oh yes.
April Snow: 23:57
It's so hard.
Lori Cangilla: 23:58
And then there's all this it's so terrible.
April Snow: 24:02
And you see all this funny memes like oh I did this perfectly a thousand times and someone watched me and it all crumbled. There's something and I haven't dug into the reasons behind this, but there's something that happens when we're being observed and we're aware we're being observed. Yes, it's a lot harder to focus and let alone feel steady and at ease. Yeah, the investment or the meaning of it for us. If I don't really care about how my lawn looks, I don't really care if people observe it, right. But if I care about a production I'm working on or I really care about a presentation I'm giving at work or a conversation I'm having with someone that's important to me, then that anxiety is gonna get turned way up and then I might start to feel a little bit like an imposter.
April Snow: 24:53
Can I be in this relationship? Can I do this job? Can I? Is this creative outlet the right fit for me? So many doubts can come through. So a lot of important pieces there. Just being an HSP, this is gonna happen more often. And then, of course, how much more invested. That's gonna turn up the doll as well. I'm wondering if you could share. You alluded to it earlier, but what are some of your own experiences around this, if you're open to sharing and how you manage it.
Lori Cangilla: 25:24
Yeah, I definitely am not someone who can say I've mastered this and I'll never have it again. I know it will happen again, because it's happened throughout my life. There were times, especially in graduate school. I started out as a career teaching German and then made the switch to psychology, so spent much of my first year of graduate school feeling very much like I was going to be discovered as oh, we really shouldn't have admitted, you Like.
April Snow: 25:51
I don't know how you snuck through but you don't belong here.
Lori Cangilla: 25:55
And other times too I definitely, when I was putting my book together, once I got past the writing of the first draft, which felt very comfortable because it was all just me doing it on my own. That was beautiful, and then to open it up to editors and to start that process of sharing it with other people and marketing. It was brutal and I remember talking with you about how vulnerable.
Lori Cangilla: 26:18
I felt with that process. I think it's pretty common experience, but I think what I found over the years has been really helpful is doing some of that in our work, but also the importance of being able to share with a couple of people around any given situation about what I'm experiencing and have that normalized. Have them saying, yeah, I've been there too. That makes a huge difference. Right, I think that's anything that has some shame layer in it. When we can connect and feel like other people that have had similar experiences and the people who care about us can look at us and hold that shame and hold those vulnerable feelings and really provide support, that makes such a difference.
April Snow: 27:06
Yeah, it's like the antidote is being safely seen, right, right. Yeah, it's like when you were writing your book and you move out of that and I know the solo, that cozy space of writing on your own and then you have to put it out in the world. People are gonna read it, they're gonna have opinions about it. It's so horrible. Same when you're sharing anything. It could be an idea, it could be an experience and emotion. It's all very ripe for judgment or someone responding the way we're not ready for or we don't want. But also it creates an opportunity that maybe we'll be seen, we'll be celebrated and, especially with writing, other people will relate to it and it'll create impact. So there's a big payoff if we can move through that initial discomfort. So how do we get to those places of being safely seen? What are the first steps in that? What?
Lori Cangilla: 28:05
would you say. So the way I approach performance anxiety and imposter syndrome is the way I approach other clinical issues with my singularly sensitive approach, which is to start by really stepping back and inviting myself or inviting the other person to do some exploratory work, because we build these stories. I'm about public speaker, or I always screw that up if my boss is standing at my cubicle, but as soon as he goes away I can do it. So I like to help people start to broaden out there and see what goes on, and so there's looking at it with some distance.
Lori Cangilla: 28:48
I think there's also helping people to more holistically examine their experience. What's coming up in your body when that happens?
April Snow: 28:59
How are you?
Lori Cangilla: 28:59
breathing, where do you envision yourself? Who are the voices in your head? Does it sound like your mom? Does it sound like your third grade teacher? Those kinds of things and help people to really deepen there and broaden their understanding. And HSPs do this so well, this kind of work. Like usually, hsps have done some of this by the time I'm talking with them so that's great.
Lori Cangilla: 29:21
But I feel like there's always a little bit deeper that we can go. There's always something new that people don't know about themselves quite so well until they start to talk about it, or until they put it down on the birth of their journal. So getting that chance to really go through their own experience is a big part of it.
April Snow: 29:39
Yeah, it's like we can safely see ourselves. First would you say Absolutely yeah, and like being with our experience, as you're maybe getting ready to share something or you're sitting in the processing post sharing how am I doing, what am I feeling, what am I noticing? And I know journaling is a big part of what you help your clients with and your communities with and it just, yeah, it leans into that natural reflective process we do as HSPs, where we can get more curious about ourselves and see what's there. Yeah, see ourselves and see what we need and then start to maybe differentiate between what is safe and what is not safe, or who is safe and who's not safe, or how much do I wanna share, what am I ready for? I start just to get into the different layers of that experience.
Lori Cangilla: 30:33
And I think, as we ask those safety questions, then people can start to try something different, like to try changing what they're thinking or changing what they're doing. But they'll have a much clearer sense of what's the tiny step I can take that isn't too overwhelming.
April Snow: 30:50
Yes, could you give, if anything, homesomia, what? Would it be? An example of a little baby stuff? Like I'm slowly starting to get out of my comfort zone, stretching myself a little bit, and what would be a step that I could take to do that?
Lori Cangilla: 31:08
So I'll use an example. That is something that I've worked with a couple of clients on who've had big goals around doing a performance, either like a poetry reading or a concert, something that might be a half an hour of them on stage in front of a group of people, and they come in at a point where they haven't done any of that, yeah, and so I'm not going to say to them we'll just go out and do an open mic. This week it's only five minutes compared to 30.
April Snow: 31:39
That's too huge.
Lori Cangilla: 31:40
They're going to bulk at that or it's going to be totally overwhelming if they push themselves to do it and disregard all of the input. That's saying no, I don't wanna do that. So maybe the first thing we do is just make a list of different places where you can go and watch an open mic and see what it's like and what would the step have to be, because maybe that feels intimidating. I don't go out to places like that, or I don't know who I'd go with, or that feels like it would just put me into a shame spiral that I'm not doing. So we back the goals up and I really think of it as I want people to be maybe 99% in their comfort zone. Oh, I love that.
April Snow: 32:21
That sounds so good to hear 1% out.
Lori Cangilla: 32:25
If we only stay in our comfort zone, 100% it's not going to get us very far. But if 99% of us is safe and comfortable and can hold that 1%, that maybe it's 1-tenth of a percent. Maybe that's our key. To start wherever, that little, tiny slice, that's just putting a toe into the pool, not pushing somebody in from the edge of the deep end, but just that tiny little touch and see what that's and learn from that experience. Then people have so much information they can use to figure out what did I like about that, what did I not? And again it taps into that normal HSP processing to just go through all of that and figure that out, mm-hmm, and come up with the next tiny little step. But always tiny steps, micro goals, always micro goals.
April Snow: 33:16
Always tiny micro goals, because that 1% of discomfort for an HSP is 50% for a non-HSP.
Lori Cangilla: 33:25
It is yeah, and even I will honor that. 1% discomfort is still discomfort, even for a non-HSP right, that's true.
April Snow: 33:34
Yes, thank you for that.
Lori Cangilla: 33:35
It's still very we'd like to be comfortable.
April Snow: 33:40
Yes, we do.
Lori Cangilla: 33:41
It's good and so really honoring and respecting all the parts of ourselves that have to get on board with trying that 1% is so important.
April Snow: 33:53
Yes, yeah, giving yourself credit for the 1% discomfort, because it's easy to compare yourself. Look outward, this person's doing this person's doing this, oh, that's so much more than I'm doing. At least it looks that way. I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. So then it's easy to want to push yourself out of that comfort zone even more. But really you're taking in so much. It's so important to go slow, like you're saying. Give yourself permission to take what seems like baby steps to other people, but probably is our leaps for you, because in that experience you are taking in the sensory information. You're taking in all the different dynamics and the emotions and the thoughts. Everything is happening at once. It's a big swirl. So, yeah, keep your nervous system safe enough to keep going right, safe enough to come back, because with an HSV brain you're going to make associations really strongly. It's like glue. So the more that you can have a positive experience, the more likely you're going to come back and take a step more forward the next time. Thank you, lawyer, for that permission.
Lori Cangilla: 35:04
It feels so good here. I just think it's what we all need reminding of, because it's so easy to get swept up, even in the sort of this performance anxiety around are my goals big enough or am I moving fast enough? And that's picky for everyone, but I think, especially as highly sensitive people, we just need to do things in a way that is genuine for us and for most highly sensitive people.
Lori Cangilla: 35:35
Most of the time we're going to take very small steps and if we do something that takes, that ends up looking like it's a big leap. I think it's because we've done so much preparation before, like that final leap might look big, but it's because people aren't necessarily noticing all of the work that it took to get them there.
April Snow: 35:56
That's exactly right. Yeah, there's so much preparation, so much that goes unseen, and making sure that we're taking all of that into account when we're recognizing what we have done, especially all the invisible part, like all the processing and preparing that happens internally, all the feeling. That's all part of the process. Give yourself credit for all of that. And celebrate it, it is important.
Lori Cangilla: 36:22
Exactly. We're not going to do those things without all of that internal work as well, so we need to celebrate that as an accomplishment.
April Snow: 36:31
Yeah, absolutely Celebrate, because that's part of the showing up, that's part of the growth, the stretching, yeah, yeah, I love that so much and keep up the one percent. How do I get to a place of letting that be enough, of celebrating it, celebrating all the components to get there? How do I let that in? I'm just wondering, because I know it's so hard to let what seems like less be enough. Yeah, right, because on paper, like oh, I only have to stretch one percent. That sounds really beautiful. I thank you, lori, for that permission and I'm wondering how do I stop myself from comparing when I see someone else doing what seems like 10 percent. I know it's a hard question.
Lori Cangilla: 37:15
Yeah, I was thinking, yeah, if you figure that one out, tell me Okay.
Lori Cangilla: 37:19
I'm an ambitious person and I am an impatient person and I'm in HSP, and so I fight with those parts of myself. The ambitious and patient part wants me to do 10 percent or 50 percent, not just that one percent. So this is not a short, easy answer, yeah, but I would say my answer is we learn to trust that one percent, followed by another one percent, followed by a half percent, followed by two percent. That all of that translates to progress eventually. Yes, but it really, I think, has to be a learned experience. We have to lean into it and do it for a while.
Lori Cangilla: 38:00
I will say sometimes to my clients will you trust me, will you take this on for a few weeks and see if you can do a little more each day or each week, and let's process it, let's make adjustments as you go and see where you end up. And yeah, they usually are not at their big goal, which makes sense, but oftentimes they're farther than they would have been had they not tried that little one percent of their time. And that's what I've learned for myself too, that when it's something that feels monumental and it feels like all of my performance anxiety, all my imposter syndrome are getting stirred up that if I can just trust that process, it works eventually and those feelings become more manageable. I won't say they necessarily go away, but I think then you have those successes you can point to and that's the importance again of celebrating those accomplishments.
April Snow: 38:59
Yes, and writing them down keep a list.
Lori Cangilla: 39:02
I did this, yes, exactly Because that is that proof that our brains need that. Yeah, I am moving, it's just that.
April Snow: 39:10
That's lovely, that's lovely.
Lori Cangilla: 39:12
That's fine.
April Snow: 39:13
Yeah, it's lovely, it's fine. Especially for an HSV, it's ideal. So that way you then aren't getting overwhelmed or too much of that performance anxiety or that imposter shame coming in. You can tolerate it as you go and then yet you have time to internalize it, to recognize it and not miss the maybe the less obvious signs of growth along the way. Like you did make that list of five places that you could do an open mic, you're even able to take that in, because there's times where that wouldn't even be possible. And look, that's actually available now. Let's recognize that's different, that's new, and then taking it sounds, taking it one bit at a time. So 1% right now will do another 1% later.
April Snow: 40:01
Or maybe I tend to be an overachiever? Hello, definitely am. So I'm needing to go down. Maybe I'm doing 10%, I need a 1%. And can I tolerate that for a little while and say, oh, actually this is better, my nervous system is happier, I'm more rested and what I'm doing is higher quality. I mean, other parts of my life get to take up space. Yeah, I'm just being able to slow down and go at your own pace, not try to keep up or perform for others.
Lori Cangilla: 40:33
Yeah, I really love that idea of other parts of my life. Get to have space too. Yeah, because I think that's what happens when we try to go at 10 or 20 or 30% at least. For me, then, what's suffering? Was it my health that's suffering my sleep, my relationships, my whatever I was going to say my yard, but my yard always suffers, you don't care about that.
Lori Cangilla: 40:53
I don't care about that. That was okay. Whatever it is that we have, something has to give right. We don't have limitless resources, so we're pushing too hard, too fast. It does really cut into those other things and then I think changes don't feel sustainable. They don't feel as aligned with who we are, Whereas if we slow it down even though we don't necessarily love the slower pacing we can envision a way that it works in our lives.
April Snow: 41:22
Exactly, yeah, it's more sustainable and more digestible, and so you're bringing up a few pieces around. If your health is suffering, if the quality of what you're doing is suffering, maybe that is a time to then pull back a little bit. It makes me wonder is there ever a time? Maybe those are some of the times. Where is there a time where we listen to the imposter syndrome or the performance anxiety instead of pushing against it?
Lori Cangilla: 41:51
I think what you shared are examples not of the performance anxiety and the imposter syndrome, but of a real deep awareness of ourselves, and so by all means, yes, we should listen to that.
Lori Cangilla: 42:03
Those are signs that the way we're pushing is not working, and so we definitely should listen to that. I think if we're purely in states of anxiety and shame, we need to listen to that and make a plan for what we do with it. But we don't have to let it stop us from taking a step. But I think when we feel like our life is out of alignment, yes, and that working on these performance goals is putting our life out of alignment in some important ways, then we should stop, take stock and do it in a really Compassionate, gentle way with ourselves. Right, because sometimes we push too hard, we don't realize until after that. Yeah, that's true, I am the worst person for being like, oh, I haven't slept right in a week and now I feel like garbage, I need to slow down. So, at whatever point, we recognize that just gently, on the kindest, most Compassionate way, just holding ourselves and saying yes, permission to change plans, just soften soften that goal.
April Snow: 43:10
Yeah, if our bucket is overflowing with anxiety, stress, if we're, if our nervous system is just completely overwhelmed, that's probably not the time to push, to step outside your comfort zone. Right, you don't have the recent internal resources to manage that external or that additional stress. So, yeah, if your buckets overflowing, you're gonna take action, but it's not gonna be in the way you expect. It's gonna be okay, let me check in, let me resource, let me rest, let me take some things off my list here, fill yourself back up and then you can go back and okay, then I can lean into to stretching myself. Yeah, it's important. Yeah, it's a good reminder. As HSP's, we need to a lot of times.
Lori Cangilla: 43:55
We need to slow it down first before we then Try to push ourselves Absolutely because, like you said, that bucket being overflowing is not the place to start To add anything.
April Snow: 44:08
Yeah, it's true, and it's good reminder that it's okay to pause sometimes.
Lori Cangilla: 44:13
So really, it's necessary to pause. There will be absolutely times in our lives where that bucket is overflowing, and that's the most important thing for us to read.
April Snow: 44:22
Yeah, exactly, and that you can Keep coming back to it again and again. Right, we always, whatever is important to us, we will continue to do that. It's okay. Stop, fill up your tank, get some perspective, do some processing, nourish yourself and you can go back towards it. Whatever it is, whether it's having an important conversation with someone, whether it's getting on a stage or Starting a hobby that you feel a little intimidated about, or you're writing a book, or whatever it is that's important to you to show up for, there'll be more opportunities to that. You can just take it one small step at a time. I'm wondering if you had one message that you could share to the HSP listeners who may be struggling with I feel like an imposter or struggling with performance anxiety. What message would you leave?
Lori Cangilla: 45:08
them with, just want people to know that it's really okay, that it has nothing to do with how well you actually go through your life in the world. It has nothing to do with how Successful or how healthy you are, that these are just fundamental parts of being human and they do not have to have the last word whether or not you reach those goals that that are so important. You can reach your goals even with a lot of performance anxiety.
April Snow: 45:44
No, that the anxiety, the imposter syndrome, it does not get the last word. It's not the only story, not at all. Mmm, that's beautiful and I know you have an imposter syndrome resource for folks that I'll share in the show notes. Could you tell us a little bit more about that?
Lori Cangilla: 46:00
Yeah, so I put together a self-study course that combines some videos with a workbook that has a variety of different Exercises and lots of journal prompts to help take people through the same method that I use with my clients in sessions. It's really designed for people who maybe want to do some of that work on their own or Can't come to see me because I have not figured out how to clone myself and see everybody.
Lori Cangilla: 46:24
So, in every state, everywhere, so it really is designed to let you do some of these kinds of deep explorations with some guidance, and that course is available on my website, so you're at least sensitivecom.
April Snow: 46:38
Wonderful. Yeah, I'm looking forward to sharing that with listeners and if you're feeling this in your own life, it's a great resource that you can do on your own in your own time. Talk about those baby steps. You can slowly ease into it and start to Look at this. Yeah, thank you, lori. I really appreciate you sharing your expertise and your own experiences with us.
Lori Cangilla: 47:02
It's been fun talking with you, always very thoughtful about her booking.
April Snow: 47:06
You always enjoy, and I know there's so much more for us to talk about and we'll have to meet again another time. Yeah, that's great. I look forward to it. Thank you Joining me and Lori for today's conversation. What I hope you'll remember is that you can take small steps out of your comfort zone to move more closely Towards what's important to you. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the sensitive stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSP resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow sensitive strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitive stories calm for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
