37: Nurturing Supportive Friendships as an HSP
With Laura Deneen, LPC-MHSP + Lauren Jackson, LPC-MHSP
What is possible when you feel deeply seen in your relationships? In this episode, I talk with Laura Deneen, LPC-MHSP and Lauren Jackson, LPC-MHSP about the benefits of supportive friendships and:
• The different roles friendships play in your life as an adult and identifying who is safe to bring into your inner world
• How to nurture friendships when you have limited bandwidth as an HSP
• Giving yourself permission to allow friendships, your needs, and your boundaries to change
• Checking in with yourself before, during and after socializing to ensure your relationships are supportive
Laura is the owner of Anchored Counseling Company in Brentwood, TN and Becoming Anchored Co. She loves being a therapist and supporting other therapists. Outside of the office, Laura enjoys spending time with her husband and baby girl, gardening, and playing with her dog Louie. Lauren is a licensed mental health therapist in Tennessee specializing in treating eating disorders at the outpatient level and the clinical director of Anchored Counseling Company supervising their staff and intern therapists. She loves working with life transitions, grief, developmental trauma and anxiety/OCD. When not working, Lauren loves spending time with her husband and almost 3 year old son, reading a good book and walking around Downtown Franklin on the weekends.
Keep in touch with Laura + Lauren:
• Website: https://becominganchoredco.com
• Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/becominganchoredco and https://www.instagram.com/anchoredcounselingco
Resources Mentioned:
• Anchored Counseling in Tennessee: https://anchoredcounselingco.com
• Becoming Anchored Podcast: https://becominganchoredco.com/pages/podcast
• Free Safe + Connected Masterclass: https://becominganchoredco.com/pages/connected
• Navigating Friendships Course: https://becominganchoredco.com/pages/friendship
• Highly Sensitive Person book by Dr. Elaine Aron: https://bookshop.org/a/63892/9780553062182 HSP Self-Test: https://hsperson.com/test/highly-sensitive-test
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Laura Deneen: 0:00
Lauren has really just been a soft place to land for me and I'm going to cry just cheering about her. But we've been through a lot together and she's changed me for the better. Just a dear, dear friend and person and human being. I never feel rushed when I'm with Lauren. I always feel that she sees me and knows me, even when I haven't been my best. I can show up authentically with Lauren and I don't have to apologize yes, we're both highly sensitive, which feels really safe to each of us, and then she's a dreamer.
Lauren Jackson: 0:32
She's like the future is ours and I am like a reflector, and it just fits so well. Something that I feel just so grateful for, that just feels invaluable to me, is how much I've learned from Laura to dream. Laura has just pulled something out of me that I didn't know was there. So thank you, laura, for that.
April Snow: 1:00
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, april Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Laura Deneen and Lauren Jackson about feeling seen and supported in your relationships, how to know who is safe to bring into your inner world and who isn't, and nurturing friendships when you have limited bandwidth as a highly sensitive person. Laura is the owner of Anchored Counseling Company in Brentwood, tennessee, and becoming Anchored Company. She loves being a therapist and supporting other therapists. Outside of the office, laura enjoys spending time with her husband and baby girl, gardening and playing with her dog Louie. Lauren is a licensed mental health therapist in Tennessee, specializing in treating eating disorders at the outpatient level, and the clinical director of Anchored Counseling Company, supervising their staff and intern therapists. She loves working with life transitions, grief, developmental trauma and anxiety OCD. When not working, lauren loves spending time with her husband and almost three-year-old son reading a good book and walking around downtown Franklin on the weekends For more HSP resources and to see behind-the-scenes video from the podcast.
April Snow: 2:32
Join me on Instagram, tiktok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in. Welcome, laura and Lauren. I'm so happy to have you both here, our first duo on the podcast. I would love to start off by hearing your HSP discovery stories. So, laura, could you start off by telling us how and when you realized that you're an HSP?
Laura Deneen: 3:26
I am trying to remember exactly how it came about. I had a phenomenal therapist when I first moved to Nashville. I've had the privilege of working with a few different providers in the Nashville area just at different points in my own journey from individual therapy and some couples therapy with my husband and I think that I remember my first therapist here in town just talking about being a highly sensitive individual herself and we shared a lot in common and our stories were similar in ways and, of course, different in ways, but she was like, hey, there's actually this book that you should read. And then I remember, like whenever a therapist has told me to read a book, I like go and buy it on Amazon that day and read it, and of course it resonated so deeply with me I think I have it on my bookshelf right here yeah, the highly sensitive person. And so I read that book. And then I was like, oh my goodness, this is me to a T. And then, of course, I'm the type of person that has to share it with everyone that I love and hold dear. And so I have a twin brother, and he's actually an HSP as well, and so I first told him about it and then I told Sean, my partner, about it and had him read the book so that he could better understand it.
Laura Deneen: 4:37
And then I like took some tests online and ever since then I've known that I was an HSP and I really just identify with the description of being an HSP. I think there's like maybe one or two, I think one of the 20. So you know you're, I know you're more of the expert in this area, but you can take just different online quizzes and there was like one or two that didn't fit for me, but pretty much every other criteria did like feels, emotions more expansively, sees the beauty and the hardship, and I mean literally everything about an HSV. I'm like check, check, check, check, check. So I want to say that was maybe five or six years ago now and it's been a sweet part of my story just to be able to even feel that the people that are in my life know me better and know how to support me better, and also in my work with clients, like identifying it more readily, has been cool too. So yeah, over the past six years I feel I've really come into my HSP-ness.
April Snow: 5:30
I love it, and this is the first time I've heard someone say they have an HSP twin, which is so exciting to know. You were just shared a womb with a fellow HSP from the beginning. Isn't that so funny? It's amazing.
Laura Deneen: 5:42
I am 30 seconds older than him and I never let him forget it. But anyway, I read this book and I was his name's Lee, and he wouldn't mind me sharing this on the show. But I was like Lee, you have to read this because I know you really well and I think that this fits you. We were at my sister's college graduation a while ago when I was first learning about an HSP, and the lights were really bright and the sound was really loud and it was so funny because we both like walked out of the room and we were like, yep, this is our HSP and not in a straight face way, but just like this is a little too much for us, we need to like take a step out, and so I think it's been really helpful to him as well.
Laura Deneen: 6:19
Just to have that information. It is a little funny, yeah, that we're both twins and we both have that same trait.
April Snow: 6:24
Yeah, it's so interesting and I love that you said that it doesn't have to be a negative, it's just more of a matter of fact. Sure, yeah, you just need to step away from this stimulation. It can be okay. Yeah, right, and just knowing yourself and I had a similar experience of, I have to tell everyone. I remember I was a counseling trainee at the time and everyone in the office I was sharing the self-test with Dr Erin's self-test and just, yeah, bringing as many HSPs in as I could.
Laura Deneen: 6:49
I love it I know that's what it's like. It's such a sweet, I think, quality about us you know and. Lauren knows this about me Whenever I like find a new thing in the therapy world or in the counseling world, I'm like I have to tell everyone about it older in the counseling world I'm like I have to tell everyone about it. Exactly you want to share it.
April Snow: 7:07
Yeah, exactly yeah. I love it, lauren, and I want to hear from you as well. When did you realize that you're also an HSP?
Lauren Jackson: 7:13
Yes, so I had never heard of this idea of like a highly sensitive person, that being kind of like a personality trait, if you will, until I started working with Laura.
Lauren Jackson: 7:24
Laura actually introduced me to it and so I started working with Laura almost five years ago, and so it was five years ago that, I think, I got the book and I got on the website and I took the little test and all of that and I was like, oh wow, this fits me as well. And so, yeah, it was when I started working at Anchored that I discovered that I also, like Laura, am highly sensitive person. And, yeah, I think one of the ways that it's shown up just in my life and in my story is that it used to not be a good thing and now it is a really good thing in terms of like how I've learned to really love and accept that part of me and I tell my clients it's like it's such a superpower when we can really hone it and when we can really get to know our sensitivities Because, like you said, april, it helps us know ourselves, and how cool is that that we can know ourselves better.
April Snow: 8:31
So, yeah, so five years ago. I love it. You're both kind of on a similar timeline and it's so sweet when a friend introduces it to you and you can kind of share in that. And, lauren, I appreciate you saying that it is a journey going from a burden to a blessing, when you're a highly sensitive person and having allies, having community around it, really makes a big difference. I'm not alone. There's nothing wrong with me. This is just a personality trait, right? This is a temperament trait. It doesn't have to be a negative. Yeah, I'd love to hear a little bit more about the clients you serve. You mentioned that, how this is quite a good fit, and I was looking at your website. I was like, oh yeah, this, I bet they do work with a lot of HSPs. Could you just share a little bit more about the people that you work with in your group practice?
Lauren Jackson: 9:14
Yeah, so we work a lot with clients with eating disorders, disordered eating, body image concerns kind of in that outpatient setting, at that outpatient level of care. And then with that we also collaborate with dietitians and doctors and that kind of thing, particularly with clients with eating disorders. And so we find that clients who present with maybe more of a restrictive type of relationship with food tend to show up strongly with maybe that highly sensitiveness. And that's not the case for everyone, certainly. So I don't want to overgeneralize it. You know it's a pattern we see for sure. So yeah, we work a lot with eating disorders. We see all kinds of other things too Grief, anxiety, depression, ocd, work a lot with OCD. That population can tend to be highly sensitive as well. You see a lot of like life transition that kind of thing. So yeah, there's something interesting between the maybe correlation, if you will, between eating disorders and the highly sensitive personality.
April Snow: 10:16
And.
Lauren Jackson: 10:16
I know that's part of my story and when I reflect back on some different seasons in my life, I can see where my highly sensitive part was at play and it wasn't maybe serving me very well or I didn't know that it was trying to serve me or whatever. And that was part of kind of my journey through an eating disorder and then in recovery and out of recovery and then coming back to myself and so, anyways, I kind of got on a tangent there. But I don't know, Laura, if you'd add anything else about the clients that we see.
Laura Deneen: 10:47
Yeah, I mean absolutely, and I think, april, you probably see this as well and I know we talked about this when you were on our show but really just that, like not knowing what to do with that emotion expression and that coming out sideways through these behaviors, whether it's compulsions and OCD or whether it's an eating disorder or other type of behaviors that the client maybe doesn't align with or doesn't align with their value system, and what I share with clients yeah, most of our clients that we see here feel deeply, and so I'll use my hands a lot in session, lauren, as it's about me. But, like again, and we can tend to compare, so this is not meant to be a comparative kind of way of explaining this but I think the general population feels like this right, and then HSPs feel to this extent, and so a lot of times when our clients come to us, they've been shamed or criticized or they just don't know how to regulate an emotion or feel an emotion in a way that helps them figure out what the underlying need is, and so that's where we come into play and we're like, hey, this is beautiful and let's practice feeling in a way that serves you, where you're not self-abandoning, like Lauren talked about. So we see that self-abandonment show up in so many different fashions and shapes and forms in the practice. But honoring this right, this emotionality that's there, it's like how can we honor that and name it and celebrate it, even as this beautiful part of you?
Laura Deneen: 12:17
Like, when I get home, lauren knows my dog, it's Louie and I just love my dog and I, of course, love my baby too. But he'll lick my face and I'm like I'm so happy to see you and my husband's like, okay, yeah, there's Louie, and I just love my dog and I, of course, love my baby too. But he'll lick my face and I'm like I'm so happy to see you and my husband's like, okay, yeah, there's Louie, and it's just different, like it's not that he doesn't love the dog, but just the depth of the love that I feel for this animal and for my baby too, or just like deeper, I think, and Sean's a great person, but it just is a different, you know, way of feeling, I guess.
April Snow: 12:45
So it really is. When you feel so intensely, you're highlighting, it can be really beautiful and there's a lot of passion, a lot of love, excitement. But then the flip side is also true. And what do we do with those emotions, especially if we don't have any tools, we don't have any supports, and so, yeah, it comes out in that, those restrictions. I see that a lot with whether it's an eating disorder, it's obsessions, it's severe anxiety, all those manifestations where you just don't know what to do with it, especially if they're even if you have other HSPs in your life, they may not know what to do either, and it has to go somewhere. Yeah, so appreciate you all doing the work that you do and helping HSPs find a path to just celebrate themselves, as you said, and know that this isn't. I think we start to think that this is it for us. We're stuck in these modes of being, and it's not true. There can actually be positive experiences in HSP. You're not doomed to be constantly overwhelmed, anxious in these states of mind.
Laura Deneen: 13:45
Yeah, absolutely.
April Snow: 13:47
Yeah, so thank you for sharing that. I think it's important to highlight these different experiences, and it's great to hear about the work that you all are doing in Tennessee. I am curious to hear a little bit more about when you two meet. How did you become friends?
Laura Deneen: 13:58
if you're open to sharing, yeah, so Lauren started with me almost, yeah, your workiversary, as we call it here, is going on five years. She has grown with me and I have shared this on our podcast. But I have really done a lot of my own work owning anchored and my own mental health journey, having employees and all the things and Lauren has really just been a soft place to land for me and I'm gonna cry just cheering about her, but she is such a safe place to land, a soft place to land. She's been through so much with me and so we are colleagues and friends first and foremost. But I just I cherish my relationship with Lauren and I think there's a safety and a trust there, just having been through some really painful, hard experiences together and also some really joyful experiences together.
Laura Deneen: 14:55
One of the things that I tell any new staff member that joins Anchored is that I feel like I can take a deep breath around Lauren, is that I feel like I can take a deep breath around Lauren and that's been such a gift to me.
Laura Deneen: 15:11
And so, yeah, I've seen Lauren show up with integrity and character in so many different situations. You know we have babies that are around the same age and love to play together and Lauren supervises the team and they just really, I mean it's such a blessing to be able to impart her wisdom and gentle guidance onto them. So there's lots I could say about Lauren, but yeah, I mean we've been through a lot together and I think time is a good tell too. I mean I feel like we know each other really well. We have a lot of in common and similarities and we also have our differences. So, yeah, lauren's just a phenomenal person and therapist and leader. She's changed me for the better, knowing her. So this is my ode to Lauren. But yeah, I mean just a dear, dear friend and person and human being. So yeah.
Laura Deneen: 16:16
So beautiful. I love how you said you can take a deep breath around her. Lauren is a soft place. So, yeah, therapist here beyond me, so I guess our third. But yeah, we've grown a lot, we've learned a lot together, we've been through hard times together and I think that that really is a testament to someone's character and integrity, and Lauren shows up so well for people.
Laura Deneen: 16:38
One of the things that I love the most about Lauren is I never feel I can tend to have a lot on my mind and with the business like try to do all these things, and I never feel rushed when I'm with Lauren.
Laura Deneen: 16:47
I always feel that she sees me and knows me, even when I haven't been my best, you know, like I can show up authentically with Lauren and I don't have to apologize, and that's been really a gift to me too. And she's been really healing too, just in terms of how I run the business over the past few years. And one of the things that I've celebrated in her, too, is her ability to challenge me when I need it, you know, and that's been so beautiful and I think that she's really stepped into that and I'm grateful for it. She tells me what she thinks in an honest, kind way, and I need that because sometimes I can get on my little train track and go 100 miles ahead and I need to like pause the train a little bit. So I think that we balance each other out really well in that regard and, yeah, just forever grateful for her. She's changed me for the better, there's a lot of love in our relationship and yeah, it's so beautiful.
April Snow: 17:48
And did you two know each other before you work together? No, we just found each other. That's pretty phenomenal. I mean, it sounds like you've built a really beautiful friendship and, like you said, you have to be able to have those hard conversations with people. Yeah, it's so important you shared the positive experiences, but also being in the trenches with each other is so important. Yeah, lauren, I'd love to give you a moment if you have anything to add.
Lauren Jackson: 18:13
Yeah, yeah. So yeah, laura reached out to me just wanting to bring on her new hire and I was fresh out of grad school, fresh out of my internship, and it felt like such a cool kind of opportunity and moment, that like someone was reaching out to me and wanting to get to know me as a possible therapist, and so, yeah, I mean we certainly started out as like boss, employee, whatever, but pretty quickly just became sweet friends and colleagues and I mean, just echoing all the things Laura has said, she's just been a truly phenomenal leader and mentor to me and I wouldn't be the therapist I am today if it weren't for Laura and just her supervision and her believing in me. And I think what's so cool about Laura and I and, I think, why we work so well together, so, yes, we're both like that highly sensitive piece which feels both really safe to each of us. And then, like Laura was saying, she's like a dreamer, she's like the future is ours and I am like a reflector. And I think that just is, I think it just works, I think it just fits so well and I think something that I feel just so grateful for, that just feels invaluable to me, is is how much I've learned from Laura to dream, because I don't that's not my tendency.
Lauren Jackson: 19:35
I'm a nine on the Enneagram if anybody is an Enneagram person and so I tend to kind of fall to the background a little bit. And Laura has just pulled something out of me that I didn't know was there, that is this like leader and this like assertive person, and I don't know. So, yeah, I find myself like dreaming about things and wanting these things for the future, and that's just been really cool and a really cool thing to kind of see grow in myself and so, anyways, so thank you, laura, for that. Our friendship is really sweet and our work relationship is really sweet. We work really well together and anchored. It just means so much to both of us and we just love what. It just means so much to both of us and we just love what we do together so much, and so I think we're a good team.
April Snow: 20:27
Yeah, that really comes through. I think I mentioned this before we started recording that you can just tell the two of you work so well together and just seeing what you've been able to build and all the resources you've created, and it's just a testament to what can be possible in a safe relationship, right. When you have that safe base, you get to unfurl those parts of yourself that maybe couldn't be seen before, or you can be influenced and inspired and, yeah, we need to complement each other. It's such a reminder that we need all types of people in the world, right, and what's possible when we allow our strengths to kind of collaborate and come through. Yeah, it's clearly a beautiful friendship. And, laura, I had read a blog I think it was from you on the Anchor Counseling site about friendship being kind of like an onion.
Laura Deneen: 21:14
Yep.
April Snow: 21:14
Which I just love that metaphor and that you can have these different roles or levels of friendship, and you know clearly you two are I mean, you're colleagues. You're also seem to be really close friends or have built a friendship over the years. I wonder if you could speak to that. I think we put a lot of pressure on ourselves that friendships have to be at a certain level, or especially as HSPs, because we want to go deep. We want, you know, we just have certain expectations of ourselves. We want, you know, we just have certain expectations of ourselves. So I wonder if we could talk a little bit more about what are the different levels or roles of friendship?
Laura Deneen: 21:45
in our lives as adults. Yeah, and I do want to name, you know, lauren and I do have this like dual relationship kind of piece as well, and one thing that I've tried to do and I'm even thinking of like, oh, my goodness, when was the last time we did this and we probably need to name this again. But, my goodness, when was the last time we did this and we probably need to name this again? But, like you know, there is this like, yes, I own the company, lauren, you know, and so there is this power piece, but we do talk, we try to talk openly about it, and I do tell Lauren, our capacity has changed as the company has grown, so, in full transparency, and even I've changed around that dual relationship piece right, having future employees, and so Lauren and I I think Lauren does a beautiful job of, you know, being so kind with the therapist on the team and also having those boundaries in place, which can be hard, because I think both of our nature is to like be friends with everyone. You know what I mean. So there's been growth, I think, for me and that as well, and I tell Lauren that I'm grateful that she started when she did before I did some of that growth, but yeah, I mean around the pieces of the onion.
Laura Deneen: 22:43
I think one of the things that maybe I falsely believed was that I had to be best friends with everyone that I came into an encounter with, if you will, and one of the things that I've learned over the past few years is that we can have different levels of friendship and different types of friends in our lives, like people that know us inside and out would be maybe closer to like the core of the onion, versus maybe an acquaintance that we get coffee with every other month and then, accordingly, we also build safety and trust based on the layer of the onion, and so I'm not going to necessarily share with the person that I see every two or three months my deepest, most vulnerable things, because they haven't earned that privilege or that right or that access into my inner world, whereas Lauren you know, speaking to her character and integrity, she's been with me five years and so it is safe for me to vulnerably express myself and then, if I need to apologize or kind, of course, correct, I will with her. But there's a felt safety, there's actual, like proven safety there, where we have been through those experiences together where each of us has been vulnerable and we've been held through that without judgment, without shame, et cetera, et cetera. So that's really the onion, and there's lots of different ways to think of it. You can think of it like an onion and kind of peeling back the layers.
Laura Deneen: 24:07
You know, a tree is another kind of analogy I'll use around friendships that maybe are more seasonal and we're in fall right now, as we're recording right. So when you think about the leaves falling away and that being okay and I know Lauren can speak to this as well, but I think a little bit less like you said, the pressure and expectations for everyone to be these core friends is just too much and it's unrealistic for our lives right, when we're working or have partners or children or whatever, and it's not sustainable for all of our friends to be our core friends, if you will. So that's one of the reasons I wrote that blog was just to kind of give clients permission to think about what, who fits into what categories and why. Why is that?
April Snow: 24:52
Yeah, I'll check in with you, lauren, if you wanted to add anything to that piece, anything from your perspective to that piece Anything from your perspective.
Lauren Jackson: 25:03
I love that both of those kind of metaphors or images, if you will, and they certainly ring true for me and my adulthood.
Lauren Jackson: 25:08
I think when we're younger, growing up, we can tend to naturally just have a lot of friends and have a lot of people around us in middle school, high school, that kind of thing, and then maybe even college.
Lauren Jackson: 25:19
I think into adulthood it can sometimes feel a little bit trickier to navigate friendships, especially if you're trying to make new friends and maybe try and keep old friends, and then you also have all of the things that go along with being an adult and responsibilities and jobs, and so it can feel like a hard thing to juggle, especially if there are unrealistic expectations that we're holding or internalizing around what our friendships should look like or should be like, or how many we should have and how close we should be with them.
Lauren Jackson: 25:50
And so you know, I think for me in adulthood, learning to as the nine, as the peacekeeper, as the people pleaser, the one who doesn't want anybody to be mad or upset I think something that in adulthood that I've really learned and grown around in my friendships is really learning and challenging myself essentially not to feel like I have to keep the peace with everybody especially friends, especially people who are supposed to be safe, supposed to be safe right, or the ones who are really safe to me, that I really value being friends with people, whatever layer they're at and maybe whatever branch they're at or whatever the metaphor you want to use that I can show up authentically.
Lauren Jackson: 26:38
And me being authentic, I've learned, means that I I can't keep the peace all the time, and so that's felt really important for me and how I've learned to kind of navigate friendships and to adulthood. Because the reality is is that, yeah, I do still have a couple of really great friends from college or high school and the reality is is that they live in different States and we just don't talk all the time. And I know that we can catch up, you know, once a year and we can pick up where we left off, and that's safe and that's fine and there's not going to be resentment and nobody's going to be mad at anybody, and then allowing friendships where there has been maybe a dysfunctional kind of pattern, allowing them to run their course and maybe naturally end what they've needed to.
Laura Deneen: 27:26
Yeah.
April Snow: 27:27
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean there is that natural kind of transition from maybe in the inner core to the outer core as we grow and our lives change and we move away from each other. That's okay, that makes sense. But it sounds like only keeping those people in your sphere when it's authentic, when you can both accept that.
April Snow: 27:45
This is the dynamic now, because I definitely had friendships where there's a lot of pressure to be more than that, when it just didn't make sense and it no longer felt safe. And then there's those times where things just kind of organically fall away. But I'm wondering, there's just times where things just kind of organically fall away. But I'm wondering when do we need to consciously move a friend to the outer edges or out completely? When do we know this is not a safe friendship anymore? I can't be myself. I'm just curious if you could speak to a little bit more about what that looks like, because I think HSPs really struggle with ending friendships and we play that peacekeeper role a lot of the times that you talked about, lauren, or that people pleaser, and we don't end friendships when we should.
Lauren Jackson: 28:25
So I'm just curious if you could speak to that.
Lauren Jackson: 28:28
How do we know it's time, yeah?
Lauren Jackson: 28:28
Yeah, I think, or I wonder if it kind of comes back to we first have to be really familiar with ourselves or really aware of ourselves and what we're feeling, what our opinions are, what our thoughts are, what our needs are, what our experiences, what safety to me means, because all of those things as an HSP are, they're like, they're big, we feel them. I don't know. I think it can feel maybe sometimes scary to get close to that, and so becoming really aware of what those things are telling us and the information we can gather from the experiences we're having, from those places of sensitivity, can be really informative in what needs to happen in a friendship, or how a friendship maybe needs to evolve, or a conversation that needs to be had or whatnot. Because, like I said, I think that just can speak so much to how each of us individually experience safety and ultimately, if a relationship maybe doesn't feel safe anymore, that can be such an indication that maybe this friendship is no longer serving me. So I think, yeah, really I think a lot of it, or at least maybe even for me comes down to do I know myself first.
Lauren Jackson: 29:59
Yeah.
April Snow: 30:00
That's such a good reminder. Yeah, first know who you are and what safety is for you, cause you're right, it's different for all of us. What's safe for one person is not for another, so that's such a good reminder Like that's the foundation where we need to start from.
Laura Deneen: 30:13
Yeah, yeah, I would add to I think that's like just such an excellent point, lauren, and knowing yourself versus that foundation, right. And then practically, if you're listening today, I think it's like okay, repeated violations of trust, of boundaries, especially for HSPs, right. So as an HSP, I cannot commit to and I have a little one at home and all these things, right. So I cannot commit to things socially during the week, maybe more than like one thing a week, right. And if I commit and realize I actually need to go home because my nervous system needs more regulation and needs like a hot bath there, needs to be like a mutual respect there, and so this is kind of a tangent. But I think when we've done our work as HSPs so what I mean by that is our therapeutic work and knowing yourself, well, you respond well to another person's boundaries, or that would be ideal, right, it's like, yeah, I actually have to go home, I can't make it tonight. And how the other person on the other side receives that and then how they respond to that I think is really telling. And so that person might even be an HSP and not know it, but still respond poorly, right. So I think that's like practical, kind of just really analyzing how other people respond to our boundaries, how other people communicate with us, their kind of perception and even tolerance of emotion. I think those are practical things that can help us figure out is this person safe for me? Is this person someone that I maybe need to like spend a little bit less time with?
Laura Deneen: 31:54
I also love thinking about, like how I feel before, during and after. We use this skill a lot. Like I spent time with someone. Am I dreading spending time with someone? And if I am, what's that about? During, how do I feel? Do I feel withdrawn? Do I feel shut down? Do I feel discouraged? And then afterwards, how do I feel when I spend time with Lauren? I feel rejuvenated, I feel uplifted and, even if the content of what we're talking about is hard, there is a sense of like we are in this together and we're gonna figure this out. I feel encouraged, I feel equipped, versus if I'm, maybe, with a friend that doesn't really truly see me or hear me or understand me, I maybe feel more discouraged or disheartened or criticize, whatever it might be, and those check-ins, like Lauren was talking about with yourself, I think, can be really helpful. So how do I feel before spending time with this person, how do I feel during and how do I feel afterwards? And being intentional about naming that for ourselves, with our friends, can be really fruitful.
April Snow: 32:54
Yeah, I appreciate that it can be as simple as a quick check-in. Let me take a baseline before and then. How am I doing after? And then, even before, do I feel depleted? Do I feel misunderstood? Do I feel dismissed? So, knowing yourself, but then seeing how those friendships are impacting that base, it's so important then to really listen to that and trust it. Yeah, I'm curious to hear. So once we start to do that work of reflecting who am I, what do I need in friendship? So once we start to do that work of reflecting who am I, what do I need in friendship? But then, once we find those people that we do feel safe with and we want to invest time with, how do we make space energetically to nurture? So I know you two, obviously you can tell that you find time for that, you prioritize it. It seems like just in your relationship. But how can we do that as HSPs when we have limited bandwidth?
Laura Deneen: 33:41
That's a good question, I know it's a big one.
Laura Deneen: 33:43
I'm like I don't know, but take it day by day yeah, I mean truly, that's the first thing that came to mind is taking it day by day, right, so a dreamer and planner, like where I can want to tend to plan out, like I'm already thinking like what am I going to do in 2025?
Laura Deneen: 34:02
It's just how I'm wired and I think this idea of coming home to yourself is really just that mindfulness of what is my capacity today. You know, we took our little girl to like a little petting zoo on Saturday and Sunday. I found like I just really wanted to like sleep and take a nap and like do nothing and sit on my couch, right, because I was a little bit depleted and it was so much fun. But I think it's recognizing what the need is and then honoring it, like we've been talking about on this show, and I do think some of that we can't necessarily predict, because life happens, right, grief happens, unexpected things are thrown our way, and how we deal with that, I think is really important. So I think that takes mindfulness, it takes intention, especially as HSPs, if our capacity when we're paying attention might not be as big as someone else's.
April Snow: 34:49
Yeah, it's so true that we have to have those counterbalances and there has to be room for things to shift. You might be excited to go to the petting zoo or to this event or this social gathering, but then you have to have a balance. The next day or the next week and some days you might be excited about something, but then you just don't have the energy, and so needing to ship things and make space for it yeah, I'm curious to hear, Lauren, your thoughts on this as well.
Lauren Jackson: 35:13
Yeah, yeah, I mean that's such a. That's like the question. I mean, yeah, day by day, I think again, do I know myself? Do I know what my capacity is? Have I taken that inventory? Have I checked in with myself?
Lauren Jackson: 35:29
And can I give myself permission to, maybe, when I have made plans, if I get to it and I can't do it or I don't have capacity at the time, to put my hand up and say, hey, I can't make it or these plans aren't going to work for me today, and learning how to have those boundaries, because I think another thing that can be hard for the highly sensitive person is maybe the fear of, like, setting a boundary and how somebody else is going to react or respond.
Lauren Jackson: 35:58
And again, that can speak to like the safety and the relationship like Laura was mentioning, and so that can speak to like the safety and the relationship like Laura was mentioning. And so I think that's some of the work that you know we get to do. Maybe, whether you're HSP or not, it's like learning those good boundaries and with self and with others. But, yeah, the bandwidth piece has tough, you know, cause we're all different and we all have different levels of capacity, and so it's just being really good at knowing what yours is and honoring that. I think that's the key there is. Just can I honor myself first and that's okay, and like having permission to do that. It's important.
Laura Deneen: 36:36
Yeah, because when we think about like health right and how other people, I know that like we're all so unique, but if I cancel on someone, or if someone cancels on me, my hope is that my response is like oh my gosh, I totally understand, yes, and like would love to see you, like, please go take care of yourself.
Laura Deneen: 36:53
And I think we take it as we get healthier and grow. It's less personal, right, versus like maybe before we do therapy, and it feels more personal or so deeply attached to our self-worth. We see those boundaries that Lauren's talking about as like you know, a healthy thing and we can respond in ways that are healthy and supportive to the friendship, versus going to a place in our minds like they don't want to spend time with me or they don't like me, like maybe it's not even about us, maybe they just really just need time, and I think that takes effort to get there. Especially if we are more sensitive, we can be like oh, you know, we haven't done our work, maybe feel some feelings about that, and that's okay. But I think how people respond to that is really telling as well.
April Snow: 37:40
Absolutely is, and there's safety in that if someone can hear and respect your boundary. And no, it's not personal, it's just there's a lot of pieces in our lives that need to fit together and sometimes we need to make shifts to keep ourselves afloat right, to keep things sustainable. Yeah, there's a need for that. So I want to end our conversation today with just asking you each what's a message you could leave for hsps who are wanting to create deeper connections in their lives I mean, lauren, do you have a thought?
Lauren Jackson: 38:13
well, anything. The first thing that comes to mind and I kind of said this at the beginning, so so I'll just repeat it your sensitivity is good and, if you allow it, can really help you and can really serve you in a lot of different ways. Just, you know, stay present in your life, to stay connected with people around you, to stay aware of what's going on for you. So, yeah, your sensitivity is a good thing and you can use the information that your sensitivities are giving you to inform you of what you need.
April Snow: 38:55
Yeah, thank you for that. It's true, we get so much input from being more perceptive, intuitive, emotional. We can really use that to know what you need, who's safe for you, where you can show up or where you pull back. It's such a gift. Thank you for that reminder.
Laura Deneen: 39:13
Yeah, I think, just tagging along with what Lauren said, I think just honor that word honoring came up a few times in today's episode. Just, you know, I can honor this trait about myself and you know, maybe just even giving yourself time to figure out what your bandwidth is, what your capacity is, and also giving yourself permission for it to change. You know, I know, since becoming a mom, my bandwidth has changed and instead of criticizing that or shaming myself for that, I can acknowledge it and figure out what I need, like Lauren was talking about. But, yeah, the highly sensitive people, I mean, I know I'm a little bit biased, but I think that we're a gift to this world and I, yeah, I think that for anyone listening, if you're new to figuring out what a highly sensitive person is, it's just like it's such a cool, amazing thing. So, yeah, thanks, april.
April Snow: 40:05
Yeah, thank you both. I really appreciate that reminder that we have permission to change whatever it is that you're focusing on. You can change the people, the situation, how you see yourself, and we don't have to stay stuck right. There's a lot of opportunity. As sensitive people to, I mean, we feel so deeply. It's such a gift. You get to feel all the positive emotions too let's not forget that and we can really lean in and just look what's possible with connection, being in friendship, in community with someone. It's so rich and rewarding and you two are a clear example of that, of what's possible, and I felt that in my own life with people where it's such a gift, and I just appreciate you both being on the podcast today, so I will be. Yeah, this is lovely. I loved hearing both of your stories and just kind of getting a glimpse into your relationship was really beautiful, so I thank you for that.
Laura Deneen: 40:59
Thank you. This is the first time we've been asked, as a duo, to be on a podcast. Oh, really, yes, we were so excited. Thank you, oh, I love that.
April Snow: 41:09
Yeah, just think of you just as a beautiful example of friendship and I was like, oh, I have to have them both on at the same time. Yeah, so I'll be sure to share all the amazing resources that you both have your Anchored Counseling site for folks who are in Tennessee are looking for support. Also, your Becoming Anchored podcast, your courses, your social media. There's so many beautiful resources there and I saw that you also have a couple great courses on friendship, on boundaries relationships. Could you just tell a little bit more to listeners about the resources there, maybe about your podcast or the other resources that you have there on Becoming Anchored?
Laura Deneen: 41:42
Yeah, so I know that we had you on our podcast about a month ago, so that's the Becoming Anchored podcast, like you shared. Lauren and I are co-hosts for that, so sometimes I host, sometimes Lauren does, sometimes we do it together. But really the Becoming Anchored podcast was actually Lauren's idea and it's been such a fun, rewarding avenue for us to spend time with people and meet people across the country like yourself that we just really look up to and respect and admire. So it's been just another outlet for us as therapists to do something different than direct client care, and I think that just enriches our work to like learn from other people. And then we have a blog on the Becoming Anchored site.
Laura Deneen: 42:20
We also do have some like products we talk about like being anchored in hope, so we can be anchored in lots of different things and just with the nature of our work as therapists, I think a lot of times people can feel that they've lost hope and then, yeah, we're building out the courses. Lauren might do one, actually, in the new year, so we're building out just all the courses I've been working on, you know, teaching therapists about how to treat body image and perfectionism and all the things. So that's going to continue to grow. But for now, we do have that course on friendship that I did and I think there's just a kind of a need for, hey, like this is something I wish I had had 10 years ago, and the hope here is to that. It's a little bit, you know. I know therapy can be quite costly and so it's just another avenue to provide support to clients.
April Snow: 43:05
So, yeah, I love it. Yeah, I mean there's so many great resources for folks that aren't in Tennessee that want to work with you in different ways, and I love that message anchored and hope that's really beautiful.
Laura Deneen: 43:15
Yeah Well, thank you.
April Snow: 43:17
Yeah, Thank you both and yeah, I look forward to connecting again soon. Thank you so much for joining me, Laura and Lauren, for today's conversation. What I hope you're taking away is friendships really are about quality time, not quantity. It's okay to be selective about who you invite into your personal space, your inner circle, and to change your mind if someone doesn't feel safe anymore. For more support in developing stronger friendships where you feel seen and connected, head over to becominganchoredcocom, where you'll find Laura and Lauren's podcast, their course on navigating friendships and a lot of other resources. Links are in the show notes. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind the scenes content and more HSB resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, TikTok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
