10: Unhooking from Overgiving and Overfunctioning as an HSP
With Maegan Megginson, LMFT, LPC
Are you burning out trying to do all the things you’re supposed to? In this episode, I talked with Maegan Megginson, LMFT, LPC about unhooking from expectations and finding new ways to be of service to yourself.
We also explored:
• Grieving the life you imagined you would have before discovering that you’re highly sensitive
• Experimenting with changes to feel more comfortable with yourself, in your relationships, and at work
• Setting boundaries around giving and receiving empathy
• Tending to yourself first by asking the questions, “have I been invited?” and “do I have the energy to offer support?”
• Finding new ways of being of service to yourself and unhooking from overgiving and overfunctioning
• Shifting the rules of how you work at the first sign of burnout
• Integrating the personal and professional parts of yourself to find more balance and healing
Maegan Megginson is a Licensed Therapist and Business Mentor on a mission to help business owners recover from burnout and reignite their vision for their work and their lives by blending the emotional, psychological, and spiritual elements we need to become deeply rested and wildly successful.
Keep in touch with Maegan:
• Website: https://maeganmegginson.com
Resources Mentioned: Recover From Burnout is a free 10-day email series that will help you feel better without adding tasks to your to-do list or buying another helpful tool you'll never use. Sign up here: https://maeganmegginson.com/recover-from-burnout
Thanks for listening!
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This episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Some links are affiliate links. You are under no obligation to purchase any book, product or service. I am not responsible for the quality or satisfaction of any purchase.
Episode Transcript
Maegan Megginson: 0:00
I started getting more curious about what I needed to change in my home environment and my work environment to really turn the volume down on all of the sensory inputs that I was exposed to. I just started experimenting with all of the ways I could change. I learned so much about myself and what really helped settle my nervous system.
April Snow: 0:31
Welcome to Sensitive Stories, the podcast for the people who live with hearts and eyes wide open. I'm your host, psychotherapist and author, April Snow. I invite you to join me as I deep dive into rich conversations with fellow highly sensitive people that will inspire you to live a more fulfilling life as an HSP without all the overwhelm. In this episode, I talk with Megan about unhooking from overgiving and overfunctioning, finding new ways to be a service to yourself and grieving the life you imagined you would have before discovering that you're highly sensitive.
April Snow: 1:12
Megan is a licensed therapist and business mentor on a mission to help business owners recover from burnout and reignite their vision for their work and their lives by blending the emotional, their vision for their work and their lives. By blending the emotional, psychological and spiritual elements, we need to become deeply rested and wildly successful. For more HSP resources and to see behind the scenes video from the podcast, join me on Instagram, TikTok or YouTube at Sensitive Strengths or sign up for my email list. Links are in the show notes and at sensitivestoriescom. And just a reminder that this episode is for educational purposes only and is not intended as a substitute for treatment with a mental health or medical professional. Let's dive in, Megan, since discovering that you're highly sensitive, what has changed in your relationship with your sensitivity?
Maegan Megginson: 2:23
What has changed in your relationship with your sensitivity. That is such a great question, april, and what's immediately coming to mind is the way like how that really feels like an evolving question, but I think every year I discover new things about what it means to be highly sensitive in my own experience. So I'm going to try to answer that question in a linear way, but I also just want to name that it feels like such a gift to be in the flow of sensitivity and I've learned so much about myself as a sensitive person over the last 10-ish years and I have a feeling that will continue happening for me in my life. But going back to the scene of the crime, if you will like when did I first discover I have a feeling that will continue happening for me in my life. But going back to the scene of the crime, if you will like when did I first discover I was a highly sensitive person? The origin story feels important for me to share, so I actually had no idea growing up that I was a sensitive person Like I take highly sensitive out of it. I didn't even know that there was such thing as, like, being a sensitive person.
Maegan Megginson: 3:26
That whole schema or framework was unavailable to me in the culture that I grew up in, and when I was in graduate school and in the early days of being a therapist, I started struggling with chronic pain in my body and, long story short, I was seeing doctor after doctor after doctor trying to figure out the source of this pain. I just had this like terrible joint pain and it was. It would move and nobody could like. One day it'd be in my elbow and the next day it'd be in my knees and I had headaches and nobody could figure out what was going on. And finally I ended up in this rheumatologist's office and they were running all of these tests, thinking I might've had some like strange form of rheumatoid arthritis, and they were putting me on these like medications, like really serious medications, because they were worried that terrible things were happening in my joints and around that time, like magic of course, I found an article on the internet about the highly sensitive person trait and I read it and I was like whoa, holy shit, this is me.
Maegan Megginson: 4:32
This is describing like every part of my lived experience and I decided that day I'm like, I'm done with the doctors, done with the drugs. I'm just going to explore this and I'm going to see if I can change things about the way I'm operating in the world and see if that solves the problems that I'm having. Miraculously, it solved so many of the problems I was having. Of course, not all of the problems I was having, but the pain disappeared as I started making these changes to my life to really honor my sensitivity, my sensory sensitivity, to really honor my sensitivity, my sensory sensitivity, my energetic sensitivities.
Maegan Megginson: 5:12
And ever since then I feel like I have just been on this journey of really discovering in what ways am I sensitive and in what ways do I need to deprogram from what I was taught to believe about life and how I'm supposed to live life, and how can I curate my environment specifically to really tend to the different sensitivities that I've noticed within myself. So, april, that's like a very big answer to your really specific question, so hit me with some follow-ups.
April Snow: 5:40
It is. This is a complicated question because sensitivity touches every part of our lives, every part of our experiences and often we don't know that high sensitivity is a possibility. You said I didn't even know sensitivity was a possibility. So I'm curious. Obviously you get to that point where our bodies tell us something needs to change, shows up as pain or some other type of discomfort or ailments. But I'm curious, if you look back before that started, now that you have this framework, could you see the sensitivity showing up?
Maegan Megginson: 6:13
Oh my God, I had shingles when I was 14 years old. So yes is the short answer to that question. In hindsight, I can see all of the ways that I was a sensitive child. And just to clarify one thing I misspoke earlier. Of course, being sensitive was a thing in the place where I grew up, but it was a bad thing. It was like, oh, you're so sensitive. It was a judgment, it was a criticism. Wasn't sensitive as a group of people who had different sensory needs or different energetic needs?
Maegan Megginson: 6:49
So I was holding, like so many of us, a lot of shame about the ways in which I was sensitive, and the looking back process when I finally identified that I was a highly sensitive person was so powerful. It was so powerful to look back at getting shingles at 14 years old and being like, oh my God, like that was my body telling me. Like this is too much, like you're doing too much, you're exposed to too much, your stress is so high that we're giving you shingles as a way to try to like, get your attention. But I could look back in smaller, less dramatic ways too and see how, socially, I was always a little bit more reserved than other people, and not because I was shy. In fact I wasn't shy.
Maegan Megginson: 7:38
I grew up in the theater. I was like a performer. I was not shy at all, but I would burn out a lot faster than other people. I would run out of juice a lot faster than other people, and I also know in hindsight that I have. So I have quite a lot of sensory sensitivities, for example, like loud noises, bright lights, air blowing on my skin, and when I look back at the family that I grew up in, I'm just like wow, not a good fit, not a good match. When I go back to visit my family now as an adult and it's like lights on everywhere and every TV is on and the radio is on and people are yelling, and it's just ooh, it's so much. So yeah, big and small ways, I can track back to being a sensitive person and it's hard being in that environment big, loud, bright when you don't know what's going on.
April Snow: 8:33
I feel like that's a common theme in a lot of the stories that I've heard. Is that here I am, this sensitive, perceptive, spongy little kid, in an environment where being sensitive is a liability, is a weakness or just isn't understood at all. There's no idea what that even looks like or what it is. It's funny that you said you got shingles. I got shingles at 32, so later, but still pretty early in the, when people typically get shingles and I think a lot of sensitive folks can resonate with that.
April Snow: 9:07
And when I was in my in high school I got headaches chronically. So the body is telling us there's too much going on, there's too much coming in, there's not enough quiet downtime time to process. Unless you grew up in a family that also has someone who knows they're highly sensitive or knows what that is Most likely, you're not getting those basic needs met for balance, right. The trait has only been on the map, at least in the complexity that we know it of now, for the last 30 years. So most of us grew up pre that information coming out and even still to this day it's not widely accepted.
Maegan Megginson: 9:42
Yeah, or understood, like you said, my family. They're just not sensitive, and so this even if it, even if the trait was widely known, they wouldn't know it, it wouldn't be on their radar, and I'm so happy for them. I look at the way they live their lives, the way they interact with their environment and they're great, they're thriving, so it's. I think, a big part of my journey with sensitivity has also been releasing judgments about myself, but also of my family, of my friends, and realizing nobody's better or worse or right or wrong than anybody else. We just have different environmental needs and different energetic needs. But to this day, communicating that to my family is so challenging because they really do struggle to understand this paradigm of sensitivity.
April Snow: 10:29
Right. They're not living it. Their nervous system, their brains are not wired with the trait. And you mentioned a good point. We should all get to thrive. I love that you celebrate them thriving and their big loudness, whatever it is, however it shows up, but then you also need to be able to thrive. Yes, I'm curious when you started to make changes you spoke of this a little while ago you had this epiphany Okay, I'm having all these rheumatoid arthritic issues, this pain showing my body. I discover I'm highly sensitive. And then what changes after that? Were you able to help yourself rebalance? What did you do?
Maegan Megginson: 11:06
Yeah. So the first thing I did was really turned the volume down on social interactions. That was the first big changes. I realized that I had already made friends with my introverted part. I knew I was an introvert. I talked a lot to my family, to my friends, about being introverted, what that meant, what I needed.
Maegan Megginson: 11:29
But when I discovered the highly sensitive piece and wove that thread into the tapestry of my life, I realized that I wasn't doing enough. Actually, I wasn't doing enough to really spend less time around the energy of other people and more time really deeply tending to myself and calming my own nervous system. So a couple of specific things I remember doing at the time was sharing with the people that I was really interacting with regularly that, oh, I've discovered this thing. I've discovered I'm a highly sensitive person. Here's what it means. I'm going to be a little less available for a little while while I figure this out.
Maegan Megginson: 12:10
So I spent less time around the energies of other people and spent more time with myself, but when I was with myself, this is where things really started changing for me. I started getting more curious about what I needed to do when I was alone, what I needed to change in my home environment and my work environment to really turn the volume down on all of the sensory inputs that I was exposed to. So it became life for a while was really experimental and exploratory. I was like, oh, do I need to change my light bulbs? Do I need to put more lamps and less overheads? And oh, how can I do ambient heating instead of having a heater blowing on my body?
Maegan Megginson: 12:54
And I just started experimenting with all of the ways I could change what I was exposed to in my environment. And it was fascinating because I learned so much about myself and I learned so much about what type of environment really helped settle my nervous system and recharge my batteries. And as I figured that out, I was able to move back into social relationships with more intention and more like gusto than I had before, because I was tending to myself the way I needed to tend to myself at home in my personal time. And then I would say, just across the board, I realized I needed to work less, that I was holding myself to too high of standards in terms of how much I could accomplish, how fast I could accomplish it. So I really started my journey with working less and doing less. That's an ongoing journey, of course, but it really did start during that chapter of my life.
April Snow: 13:57
I appreciate that you're talking about the different pillars, the sensory needs, the emotional needs, the socializing less, resting more. And this is a hard process as you start to integrate this realization about yourself. I say you generally speaking, and it is a time of experimentation I love how you phrase that because it's a lot of trial and error. What works, what doesn't work, what do I need? And then how can I give myself, how can I meet those needs? That can be the hardest part.
Maegan Megginson: 14:26
And grieving. What we have to stop doing. It's an exchange. You have to give a lot up when you're starting this journey with sensitivity, of realizing, oh, I can't do that thing that I like to do, or I can't spend time with all of these people that I want to spend time with. So, yeah, there's a lot of grief in the process too.
April Snow: 14:45
It's an incredible amount of grief. You really have to rewrite the story of what you thought your life would be, and there is grief in closing some chapters, but there can also then, hopefully, be joy in opening others. I imagine coming from a family that was maybe more boisterous or more active, social. I'm just putting some words here. You can let me know if they're wrong.
Maegan Megginson: 15:08
Yeah, you got it.
April Snow: 15:10
Can you speak to that grief? What were you letting go of?
Maegan Megginson: 15:15
Oh, with my family specifically. Let's start there. How much time do you have? No, I'm kidding.
Maegan Megginson: 15:23
I think the biggest theme around grief for me and my family has been the grieving, the fantasy that one day I would fit in, that one day, if I could just figure it out, I would not be the black sheep and I use black sheep loosely because my family loves me. They just don't understand me and they're kind to me but we don't connect and I really wanted that not to be true. In this time in my life when I was understanding sensitivity, I really I was still vacationing with my family at the time I still lived close to my family. I really wanted to figure out what can I change about myself so that we are all a better fit together? And the more I settled in to my sensitivity, the more I started to acknowledge and grieve that was never going to happen, that there was never going to be a scenario where I could integrate into their way of being.
Maegan Megginson: 16:30
And yeah, that was a painful time, that was a painful realization, but, like you said, on the other side of that grief was tremendous joy and so many doors started, opening so many possibilities. Maybe this one way of envisioning your life won't be true. But now that you've grieved that hey, megan, look at all of the things that are possible for you. And when that started, when those doors started to open was around the time that my husband and I got the bug to move from Southeast Texas to the West Coast I was like, oh, I can just do whatever I want with my life. What so? Yeah, the grief was big and there are still times when I feel that grief. And also, moving through that grief helped illuminate for me really expansive choices that I could make for myself that I have never regretted for a single moment.
April Snow: 17:26
Yeah, there's other ways to get some of those needs met around connection, being seen having a deeply rich, purposeful life, which could come from family, but it doesn't always have to. You said something about I had to let go of not integrating into the family. Of course, your family is supportive. It sounds like they really love you and accept you as you are, which is really beautiful, and also they don't understand your lived experience fully as being non-HSPs, which makes sense. So you found other ways to feel nourished and nurture yourself.
Maegan Megginson: 18:02
Right, correct. Feel nourished and nurture yourself. Right, correct? Yeah, I feel like, for me, a big part of the sensitivity journey has been grieving the realization that other people aren't going to be able to meet my needs, grieving that, like you said earlier, the path I envisioned for myself maybe like professionally or in school or what have you oh, it's not going to go quite like that. My path, my journey isn't going to look like this person that I've held on this pedestal over here. We grieve, and then, on the other side of that, is this deep learning about how I can actually meet all of these needs for myself, that I don't need these models or these roadmaps of how other people have done it.
Maegan Megginson: 18:50
I'm totally capable of crafting something unique to me and it's going to be great.
April Snow: 18:58
It's going to be great. Exactly and this, I think, is the most important thing any HSP can do is, I'm always saying turn your gaze back inward, follow your own compass. That's how you're going to feel fulfilled and balanced. However, we get really caught because we're so empathetic and focused on others' needs. We get so caught on people-pleasing, sacrificing ourselves to be what we're supposed to be. Sounds like you've been able to unhook from that, not live the life that you thought you would, coming from the family you did, allowing yourself to create a different way of being. How do we start to unhook from those expectations, especially if we are chronic people pleasers or high achievers and we want to do all the things we want to do them perfectly? I think we both, if I can say I've gotten caught up into from time to time. How do you unhook and start to come back home again?
Maegan Megginson: 19:52
Oh, it's such a beautiful question, april. And, yes, like guilty as charged. I used to joke and say I'm a recovering people pleaser, but then I was like I don't know. I think I'm always going to be a people pleaser. I don't actually think like what you said a moment ago.
Maegan Megginson: 20:10
That's setting off so many light bulbs for me that the people pleasing is born out of our innate sensitivity and empathic abilities, are deep empathic abilities and there is something so powerful about not pathologizing our quote peopleasing tendencies which gets such a bad rap right that we need to stop people-pleasing. We need to kick that part to the curb, and the way you're approaching it right now lands so differently in my body. Being like no, my people-pleasing is actually an extension of my deep capacity for empathy and I never want to lose that. That's one of the things about myself that I cherish the most.
Maegan Megginson: 20:49
I think a better question for me has been how do I set boundaries around the way I give and receive empathy in my life? How do I set boundaries around the way I interact with others, the way I give my energy? For me, it's really all about boundaries and it's this ongoing process in my life of learning how to thologizing. This people, pleaser. Part of who I am, so this might seem a little unclear. If so, it's because I'm actively figuring this out in my own process. Does that make sense, oh?
April Snow: 21:23
it does. It is a process of untangling and I really appreciate your saying we don't have to disavow this part completely. Yeah, we can't, we can't, it's part of us. We care for others so much we want them to be okay and when they're okay, we're okay. But can we look at it differently? How do we unhook? But also you're saying it's not unhooking, it's maybe just having it's reorienting.
Maegan Megginson: 21:55
And yes, and maybe the unhooking is really the thing I think comes in the pause. So we can look at this in a black or white way. Right, this two, that the dichotomous two ends of the spectrum. We're either people pleasing or we're not people pleasing. And if those are our two options, let's be honest, we're gonna going to keep people pleasing. Right, it's not. Actually, it's impossible, it's an illusion to think that we can remove our empathic nature. Not going to happen.
Maegan Megginson: 22:20
So I'm much more interested in looking at what options exist for me in the middle of those two extremes. And when I give myself permission to get curious about what exists in the middle, what actually opens up are an infinite number of possibilities for how I can show up in the world and engage in relationships. And then I get excited. So I'm like, okay, now we can play, now we can explore. That, for me, is when the pause becomes so important. Pause becomes so important. Can I notice, do I know in my own body what this beginning of a people-pleasing behavior feels? Can I feel it? Because it is a hook, isn't it it's, we feel something, get hooked inside and then there's a tug Yep.
Maegan Megginson: 23:03
It's true.
April Snow: 23:03
We get pulled right in.
Maegan Megginson: 23:04
We get pulled in, and so, I think, somatically, can we learn individually what does the tug feel like in our bodies, and can we, using something like, say, mindfulness, can we get better at noticing the tug and then pausing breathing, asking myself okay, what is happening right now? Am I consciously choosing in this moment to give some of myself to this other person? Have I been invited to give by?
Maegan Megginson: 23:35
this other person or is this a default pattern that, like, maybe now isn't the time or place for this behavior? And for me, I think the unhooking process really has involved a lot of self-inquiry around both of those pieces. Have I actually been invited to share my gifts or my energy or my empathic abilities? Have I been invited? Often, no, I haven't. But also, is this a moment? If I have or haven't been invited, regardless, do I have the energy to give right now? Do I have the emotional fortitude to give right now, or do I actually need to set a boundary, unhook and tend to myself? And if you're listening to this right now and you're like man, that sounds like a lot of work. It is a lot of work. It is a lot of work. I feel like the gift and the burden of being a sensitive, empathic person on the planet is that there's no way we can go through life without doing a lot of work on ourself and our process. But yeah, I would say that is how I would recommend unhooking.
April Snow: 24:40
I love it. First off, pausing, asking yourself do I have the energy to engage with this caretaking? Also, this is an important one have I actually been invited? Yeah, that is not a question I usually think about, but it's so true because a lot of times I assume this person needs me Right. They will not be okay without me Thinking about my siblings, for instance, or people that I really care about, who maybe I've, you know, gotten accustomed to taking care of or supporting or I love so much. I can't imagine not stepping in. But it's an important question to ask because they might not want that support.
Maegan Megginson: 25:20
They might not want the support, but I think this is where we have to own up to the consequences of that. Maybe that's a harsh word, it's the only one I can think of in the moment the consequences of these patterns Maybe that's a harsh word, it's the only one I can think of in the moment like the consequences of these patterns that we have reinforced throughout our life. Many relationships when I was really going through this process it's ongoing, but when I was in the thick of it, what I started to see was that we teach people how to treat us, we teach people how to respond to us and we have to take responsibility for the fact that when we are engaging in these overly empathic, caretaking, over-functioning, people-pleasing behaviors, we're teaching the people that we love, that we are available for them 24-7. And hey, guess what they love it? That feels great.
April Snow: 26:10
They love it, it's true.
Maegan Megginson: 26:12
We are like the most popular kid at the party at that point because, like they get so many needs met from us. But then we start feeling resentful, we start feeling invisible, we start feeling like our own needs aren't being met, and so much of my own healing has been recognizing how I've perpetuated that pattern. Yeah, it's when I started pausing and going wait, did so-and-so ask me to do that just now, or did they just assume I would? And then I did? Oh God, I have to talk to them about this. I have to really own with April. Hey, april, I know historically in our relationship I've often responded to you in this way. Or let's use a specific example A pattern that often comes up in my own life is that I'm loyal to a false and I love caretaking and I love supporting people emotionally, I love having empathy for my friends who need it, who are struggling.
Maegan Megginson: 27:09
So I respond to text messages. I will drop everything and I will respond to text messages and I will engage you in an hours long text conversation about a struggle you're having at work. I'm going to give you everything and you're going to fucking love it because it's going to make you feel so good.
Maegan Megginson: 27:26
And there are times still that I will realize I'm doing that. Often it's when I start feeling resentful or I start feeling like a little bit burnt out, and that's when I know that in order to unhook, I have to say to a friend hey, april, I realized that I have been giving a lot of support to you through our texts these last couple of weeks and I haven't asked for much in return and I'm realizing that I'm needing to balance the scales a little bit. Can you support me by doing X and Y and for a little while I'm going to back up a bit in our communication. I probably wouldn't say it like that clinically, but in process. It is awkward, but it's like it has to be made explicit.
April Snow: 28:11
It really does and you really need to break it down in that way. I'm curious have you been able to practice that in real life, where you're saying I have shown up quite a lot and now I'm realizing I need something in return which is so important to do right? It helps us preserve those relationships, keep the resentment at bay and make sure that we're not overgiving or getting caught in the empathy draw.
Maegan Megginson: 28:37
Yeah, I know Like all the time.
April Snow: 28:39
All the time yeah.
Maegan Megginson: 28:41
This is like a common occurrence for me, yes, and I think, just to overgeneralize, I would put these moments in two categories. There are the moments when I catch myself defaulting to giving a lot of support when it wasn't explicitly requested. And when I catch myself doing that, I'll try to backpedal a bit, with a friend, for example, and be like hey, I realized I just jumped into deep processing mode and maybe you were just telling me you had a bad day. What do you actually need from me as your friend? Right now, with my closest friends, I have said things to them like hey, if you notice me over-functioning, can you tell me that? Can you reflect? I would love for you to set boundaries with me around that. I love making it a collaborative process. This is like a huge part of my relationship with my husband, when he, at this point, has no problem being like Megan back off. I didn't ask I'd be like oh, great, thank you.
Maegan Megginson: 29:38
So there's that category of the work I'm doing in relationships and then, yeah, the other category I would say is oh, it's so hard, april, but it's. I'm trying to get better at telling people that, surprise, like I also have needs. And surprise, surprise, and they're like, yeah, of course you do, why are you being weird about it? And I'm just like, because it's a whole lifetime of conditioning of me not having needs and it's hard, it's like, oh, it feels like creepy crawlies in my body when I have to be like oh okay, megan, like you got to ask people for what you need.
Maegan Megginson: 30:12
You have to ask people to show up for you.
April Snow: 30:14
Yeah, it's a whole thing. It is a learning process to default to being able to take up space. I think use the word collaborate. Potentially it's rebalancing the scales and relationships I'm giving, but I'm also receiving and making sure, overall, that averages out to be equal. I'm also receiving and making sure, overall, that averages out to be equal so important. And it can be hard to do. If you've been an over function or an over giver for so long, for your whole life Exactly, you're conditioned for that.
Maegan Megginson: 30:40
And I don't know about just one more thing about that, because I'm curious if this is true for you too, april. But the more I do this in my relationships, the more I do this in my relationships, the more feedback I get from people. I love saying things like I've always wanted to support you more. You just always seem like you have it so together. I didn't think there was anything I had to give to you. I didn't think there was any value I had to add, which is crazy to me, but it also makes perfect sense it does, because you're presenting as highly functioning, high achieving.
April Snow: 31:16
I'm the person that supports you. I don't need anything. At least I'll speak for myself when I say that. So yeah, people, they get used to not stepping up and then they've been waiting potentially. Oh, now I get to give yeah, and they love it, they're excited.
April Snow: 31:29
Exactly, they love it because it feels good to give. I remember and they're excited Exactly, they love it because it feels good to give. I remember my grandmother said to me many years ago if someone offers you a gift, say thank you, because it's that process is meaningful to them, that they are offering this gift to you. Do not deny them that joy.
April Snow: 31:46
And it made me really stop and have to rethink how much I was always the one wanting to be the giver, because I thought, that meant I was strong, or yeah, impacting the other person like your grandmother said, in a way it's a little selfish selfish to deny that person that opportunity to receive joy and to think of you and to carry that joy through in some tangible way.
Maegan Megginson: 32:13
That's a real paradigm shift. Thanks, april's grandma. That's really great. And it's a real paradigm shift because so much of the martyr narrative that so many of us carry as these highly sensitive, over-functioning people. It's like, oh, I'm just giving, giving, I'm just giving all the time, but in reality it's like we're also taking. We're taking other people's opportunity to connect with us, to contribute to the relationship. It's selfless and it's selfish and I think we all have to do our own personal work to really discover our own inner balance between those two states. Yeah, I'm going to keep thinking about that one. It's good.
April Snow: 32:52
Yeah, it's a big component. Right In the sense of experience is how to take up space, be comfortable in receiving, not have to think about other people's emotions and needs all the time. It will be okay if you let them take care of it, take care of it themselves. I'm curious how this or we're talking about over-functioning relationships, caregiving relationships, needing to set boundaries come back to self. Can we talk about how this shows up at work? Because I know that's a big part of your journey recently is bringing some of that balance, bringing more of awareness of your needs into the work realm. I'm curious if you could share how you've been able to maybe rebalance at work and not just in relationships.
Maegan Megginson: 33:34
personally, yeah, oh, okay, all right, what door do we want to enter in through for this part of the conversation? So I will say, philosophically speaking, first I'll start big picture and then I'll dial in with some like specific personal examples. I think that we I'm using the me and you and the collective we of the sensitive, empathic people listening to this conversation we often become healers in our work, like we often go into businesses, service oriented businesses, serving other people, helping other people heal. Of course, we're the best at it.
April Snow: 34:12
So obviously that's- Right, we are, it's natural.
Maegan Megginson: 34:15
Yeah, it's natural. People need us, that's true, but it doesn't help us differentiate. It doesn't help us differentiate from these parts that we're over-identified with in any way, shape or form, and I think often what happens is we create these businesses that are parallel reflections of the over-functioning, people-pleasing, overly empathic children that we were in our childhoods. Yeah, and so, first of all, I think it's really helpful to think about your business. Let's externalize and personify your business. Your business is something that exists outside of you and you can think of it as another part. If you want, you can think about it as a person, and when you do that, you can start to see the ways in which you've created a business entity. You've created this, this part, that again playing out all of the patterns that you might be trying to heal or change in your personal life.
Maegan Megginson: 35:20
And I think burnout is often an indicator that this might be happening, that you're starting to heal and change some things personally, but the business that you're running it's like operating on an old operating system, like your personal operating system is getting updated as you do your own healing work, but your business isn't changing, and then you start to resent it and then you start getting burnt out in your work because the rules you're operating by inside of your business still play by.
Maegan Megginson: 35:48
All of those old scripts of your business still play by all of those old scripts. So a lot of the work that I do personally, but also in my work with other business owners, is really looking at how do we integrate these parts, how do we integrate our personal self with our professional self, how do we make our business an extension of the healing work that we're doing as people? And when we do that, we start to shift the rules, we start to shift the boundaries that we have with clients, we start to shift the expectations that we have for ourselves inside of our business. Really, we start deconstructing we're going really big for a second but we start deconstructing the entire colonial capitalist paradigm and it's really big work. So let me just pause there, april, and hear from you if this is tracking.
April Snow: 36:42
No, it totally is. It's really hitting me personally. And you're right, I think about okay, we're doing our personal work. And then we go, let's say, to family, and we realize, oh, we're still running the same scripts. Let me update. Now I'm going into the work realm. Oh, I'm still running the same scripts of people pleasing, over-functioning, ignoring my needs. Okay, let me do that. And you're right, burnout it reminds me of what you're talking about. Okay, I'm experiencing pain in my body. Something is not working. Same with burnout. Something is not working. We're not meeting our sensitive needs in some way.
April Snow: 37:21
Because, you're right, work is just another type of relationship. And are we applying the same insights and awareness to that part of our experiences as we are to ourselves? Oftentimes not. And awareness to that part of our experiences as we are to ourselves oftentimes not, showing up in the workspace in a completely outdated way. I've definitely struggled with that, for sure. Oh, I'm doing the same thing again. It's familiar. Can I bring that change over here to this part of myself? It's hard. It's because the work part is where we get a lot of our accolades, our feedback, our esteem, so it can be the hardest part to unhook from and our money, exactly.
Maegan Megginson: 37:57
And I want to name with the work part too, that we're not just fighting against ourselves, right, that inside of our businesses we're also operating inside of these really big oppressive systems of colonialism and capitalism and patriarchy. Big scary words, but it's true. I think that it is the hardest to unhook from these patterns inside of our businesses, because it's not just the personal relationships that are at stake, it's also all of the conditioning about how we're supposed to run our businesses, and that conditioning it reinforces that it's correct for us to overgive, it's correct for us to be caretakers, it's correct for us to have no boundaries. The client is always right. Make money at all costs, book more clients, book more business. It all plays together in an incredibly dysfunctional way. So it's no wonder we are all so exhausted and overwhelmed and burnt out, because look at all of the things that we are trying to untangle at one time.
April Snow: 38:59
And so much to untangle there. And you're right, we get hooked into these bigger systems. This is what you're supposed to do. This is how you have value. And if we go even deeper, more primal, this is how you get to have value. We go even deeper, more primal this is how you get to have value and get to stay around in the community. Right, follow these rules. Here's how you have value is doing more work, making more money, and that's really antithetical to what an hsp really needs, which is slowing down, oftentimes having a simpler but more fulfilling life. More, more, more is not always best for us. Rarely, exactly, and we talked a little bit about our relationship to showing up, and there's no one right way you can show up more or less as an HSB. It's not about that. It's more about what brings me fulfillment and purpose, and oftentimes just focusing on the dollars, the hours worked, the titles that doesn't do it.
Maegan Megginson: 39:58
So there's more unhooking to have to do. Yeah, and I think I'm coming to accept that the unhooking never ends, the deprogramming never ends, and that's okay. That's the beauty of life, that we're here to learn. We're here to discover what works for us. We're here to model new ways and new choices for other people.
Maegan Megginson: 40:16
One really important belief that was born for me out of many episodes of burnout, many dark nights of the soul, is the belief that my business is for me first, my clients second. So I say to my clients all the time your business is for you, not your clients. Your community, your audience are all beneficiaries of your business, right? So many people are going to benefit from your business, from the work that you do in the world, but the business itself exists to help you tend to your needs as a highly sensitive person.
Maegan Megginson: 40:53
Almost every person you ask oh, why did you open your own business? We'll tell you something about freedom. The answer will have something to do with I wanted more freedom, I wanted to be my own boss, I wanted to fill in the blank, I wanted to have control in this way or that way. But then we step into the structure of our businesses and we just start playing by the rules of all of these external systems and we have less freedom and less control and less happiness and joy than we ever had before. It's wild disbelief that your business is for you and not your clients. You can start to create some space to make different choices, choices that honor your boundaries, that honor your energetic needs. That's where the journey really begins.
April Snow: 41:41
This is edgy Megan.
Maegan Megginson: 41:44
Welcome to my world. I like to live on the edge.
April Snow: 41:48
Right. It's important work, though to say this could be for me. Whether you own a business or not, can you allow your work to be in support of you, which will greatly inform what kinds of decisions you make around boundaries and just those day-to-day choices around how you take care of yourself and how, maybe you don't take care of yourself, you sacrifice for your boss, for your coworkers, whatever it is?
Maegan Megginson: 42:11
Yeah, and if you're really struggling with this reframe. Obviously I spend a lot of time in this conversation so I'm I've gotten more comfortable with it over the years. But if you're hearing this for the first time and you feel the edginess and you're like I can't, that's too much. Zoom out for a moment and think of your life as a whole. Zoom out for a moment and think of your life as a whole and I just would ask you do you believe that your life is for you, Like your whole life? Do you believe that your life is for you or do you believe that your life is for someone else? That's a good question. Sit with that question for a little while, Also uncomfortable, but at least we can get out of the capitalist business. I'm here to serve and make money. We can get out of that paradigm and let's just sit more globally, more broadly, with business or your life as a whole.
April Snow: 42:59
Yeah, it's an important question I think every HSP needs to ask themselves is my life for me in general? Is this work for me? Is this relationship for me? Is how I'm spending my time for me, or am I constantly over and over giving and performing for someone else so important to do?
Maegan Megginson: 43:20
Huge questions.
April Snow: 43:21
Huge questions, but important questions and something we talk about in these conversations. Often a thread that I've seen is start one step at a time. You don't need to. I'm sure you didn't get here overnight. I didn't get to where I am overnight One step at a time. Allow yourself to lean onto that edge of. Can I turn that gaze back inward? Just a little, just for a moment.
Maegan Megginson: 43:45
I'm so glad for you to give that. I need to hear that reminder a thousand times a day, One step at a time one micro shift at a time.
Maegan Megginson: 43:54
I love the turning the gaze back inward and for me it comes back to the pause. Everything, for me, is about pause. The pause is the moment that I choose to turn to myself. It's the moment that I choose to stop the flow or the momentum of the day which the flow or the momentum of the day is often connected to a momentum of serving. In some way it's a pause. It's not a hard stop. I don't have time to hard stop in the middle of the day. I have appointments, I have interviews, I have people counting on me, I have dogs that need to be fed wait a minute. I have interviews, I have people counting on me, I have dogs that need to be fed.
Maegan Megginson: 44:35
No-transcript 90 seconds. It's just. It doesn't have to be huge, but if we can pause and turn that gaze inward and just choose, like a micro, something to shift right then in service of ourselves, that's how success happens. Those are the moments that led you and I to this point in time, right here, these small micro shifts. I just I'm so glad that you're bringing us back to that April, because it feels so, so deeply true.
April Snow: 45:07
It's incredibly true that it's the moment to moment because we're so easily overwhelmed even more important to slow everything down. I know we're going to hold the big picture in mind. That makes sense. We need to do that. That's how we're wired. But also, can we just focus on this moment, right now? What do I need right now? And asking that question where am I? What do I need? How can I support myself? Even a little bit, it doesn't take a lot.
Maegan Megginson: 45:35
And it's right, at the risk of sounding cliche, like this moment is the only thing that's real. Past isn't real, future isn't real.
April Snow: 45:48
The only thing.
Maegan Megginson: 45:48
I can do is make a choice for myself in this moment, and maybe it's a boundary, but maybe it's a boundary of someone else, a boundary with yourself, or maybe it's just a sensory need. What do I need in this moment? I need to turn the light off. I need to take a breath. I need to, like, put contact. I need to touch moment. I need to turn the light off. I need to take a breath. I need to put contact. I need to touch myself. I need to rub something in my body. I don't care what it is, no matter how I meet myself in the moment.
April Snow: 46:12
If I meet myself, something magical happens as a result as a result, Exactly, and as a sensitive person, because of that differential susceptibility we have, we soak up every small moment of support, self-care, connection like a sponge. So we are so much more impacted by the positive. It does not take a lot. So if you're saying I only have a moment, I only have a second to take a breath or to offer myself some self-soothing touch, that will have an impact. It's not for nothing. That's the beauty of being an HSP.
Maegan Megginson: 46:50
Oh, my God it is. I'm sitting here thinking, April, that, oh, I'm so glad that our conversation today took us into this territory of talking about relationships and having needs in relationship and having to advocate for those needs to be met. I think that's such an important conversation that we need to be having more together as a sensitive community. But, adding this piece into the mix, that so many of us are feeling resentful and bitter and I'm laughing right now just thinking about all of those people in my life they're not listening to podcasts about self-reflection. They're not listening to podcasts where people are talking about how to be in healthier relationships and how to get your needs met. They're not doing this work. They're not doing this deep reflection. We're doing it, Matt. They're not doing this work. They're not doing this deep reflection, we're doing it.
Maegan Megginson: 47:47
And I can really easily slide into the territory of feeling really bitter about that and feeling really just, I'm so fucking over being the one who's like doing all the labor and doing all the personal growth work and doing all the shifting, and I can go down that rabbit hole. But when I'm actually doing the work you're describing of turning inward, tending to myself in small moments, advocating for what I need in relationships. I feel nothing but gratitude and joy and profound privilege that in this life I get to be one of the people who is always working and always thinking and always exploring, and the depth that this brings to our life, the depth of conversations that you and I have together.
April Snow: 48:31
It just brings me so much joy and fulfillment, as long as I'm tending to my needs and all of those other ways as long as you're finding that balance, because there is so much to take away from the sense of experience, the depth and the inspiration and the joy we get to feel that so deeply, more than others, that is a gift. It can also feel like a burden when you're not taking care of yourself, but as you do start to pause, to look more inward, to find more of what's important for you, that all starts to open up more and more, which is incredible. It's such a gift. Do you have a message for someone who's just starting this journey of turning back inward, who's just learning how to pause and check in, to prioritize rest more than productivity? What would that message?
Maegan Megginson: 49:28
be Twofold, I think. First is just saying to you that everything in our society reinforces this idea that productivity and success are the ways that we have value in the world. The more productive you are, the more successful you are, the more the world sees you as someone who has merit, as someone who is worthy, as someone who has value. So I just want you to hear that you're up against so many powerful forces that are asking you to be someone you're not at your core. And if the mountain feels big and tall and hard to climb, we're right there with you. We feel that too. It is big, it is tall, it is hard to climb, and what you need more than anything is community. You need people who get it. You need people who are climbing the same mountain, who can say, hey, I did that part of the trail a couple of years ago. Here's a shortcut, here's a pro tip you need to be with people who can support you on this journey so you don't feel so overwhelmed by how big it all feels. You don't feel so overwhelmed by how big it all feels. So I would say that, first and foremost, and the other thing that I would say thinking about rest specifically is a reminder that rest can look like a hundred different things and if you, as a highly sensitive person, are trying to rest in the same ways, you saw another highly sensitive person rest, or you saw another highly sensitive person rest, or you saw your mom and dad rest and it's not working for you.
Maegan Megginson: 51:06
Let's say, for example, you're like maybe I just need more sleep, maybe I just need to lay down and be quiet and take a nap which is what most of us think resting is but that's not meeting the need, for you Just want you to know that you can do anything you want to rest. As long as it recharges your batteries and calms your nervous system, it's rest. Maybe it's intense exercise, right. Maybe it's art, maybe it's writing poetry, maybe it's spiritual practice, maybe it is connecting with friends, having deep conversation. The opportunities for you to rest are endless and they're available to you all the time. Yes, this journey is hard. Make sure you find community and know that opportunities to rest are available to you every moment of every day.
April Snow: 51:52
It's so beautiful. There are so many versions of restorative practice and it's so important to remember that it's not a one size fits all approach and I appreciate that you said not even with another HSP are we going to have the same practice. We're all unique.
Maegan Megginson: 52:12
It's the danger sometimes of HSP communities in particular, like I know I'm saying you need community of sensitive people and I believe that, but sometimes the HSP communities can become a bit homogenous. You know, absolutely, and it's large.
April Snow: 52:25
We talk about HSPs. There are billions of HSPs on the planet.
Maegan Megginson: 52:29
Right 30%. We don't all need the same things Exactly.
April Snow: 52:33
Important to offer that because I've seen this A lot of folks get caught into. I don't look like this, the majority of the community. This doesn't work for me because maybe you're an extroverted HSP you need more sensation seeking, or you're highly introverted. You're an outlier in the community. You start to feel like I don't fit in. I don't understand what I need. Just look back inward.
Maegan Megginson: 52:54
It's okay, that's right. Yeah, that's right. And those are the for me, those, the communities that I love to be in and that I seek out, are the communities where we are saying how am I different than you, how are you different than me? How can we experiment together? Coming back to the idea of experimenting, yeah, you have to experiment, because the unique makeup that you need, to be well as a sensitive person, will not look the same as my makeup will not look the same as my makeup will not look the same as April's.
Maegan Megginson: 53:23
Exactly so. Experiment and find support on the journey. That's, that's, what makes it magical.
April Snow: 53:29
It's true. I love that. Thank you so much for sharing all of that, megan, for the inspiration and the permission to come back to self, to pause, to listen to our needs, to take our time in figuring it out and to permission to be imperfect along the way. I think that's so important. There's no other way to be. There's no other way to be Exactly so. I'll link your website and then you also have a resource Recover from Burnout. I'll put that all in the show notes. Can you tell folks a little bit more about what that is?
Maegan Megginson: 53:59
Yeah, I would love to. First of all, April and I met in a business group way back in like 2016, 2017. And ever since then you have been such an inspiration to me, You've been such a pillar of light as I was navigating my own sensitive journey, and I'm so grateful to you and so thrilled that you have the show and just so honored to have this conversation with you today. So thank you so much for doing this, for having me. I'm so grateful. The work you're doing in the world is it really just is like a beacon of light for those of us who grow up without any understanding of what any of this is. You are so important.
Maegan Megginson: 54:39
Thank you, I appreciate that and this was so fun. So, yes, what I have to say? If you want to step into a world where we get a little edgy and talk about things like deep rest and recovering from burnout and being highly sensitive as a business owner in particular, I would love to have you in my community, which lives in your inbox. So there are two ways to do that. You can just jump on my newsletter. It's called the Deeply Rested Newsletter. You can sign up on my website. Or, if you are struggling with burnout right now, if you're deep in it, I have a 10-day email series called Recover from Burnout, without Doing Anything or Buying Anything, and it's an email a day for 10 days. There's also a private podcast feed, if you'd rather listen to it as audio, and I walk you through little ways that we can unhook and deprogram and begin to shift the tide in our lives so that we can feel better while we're doing really good work in the world. So that's what I have to offer.
April Snow: 55:40
Beautiful and I must say, Megan, you've been such a companion for me over the last eight years or so. I think we've shared in different parts of our journey unhooking from needing to show up like everyone else, unhooking from the expectation of hyper productivity and achievement and just coming back what's meaningful and important to us, and I love that you said leaning into burnout recovery without needing to do anything. It sounds perfect.
Maegan Megginson: 56:12
Yes.
April Snow: 56:13
Yeah, and I appreciate the work you're doing around honoring rest and all its forms, because I think that is something we really need, all its forms, because I think that is something we really need.
Maegan Megginson: 56:21
So thank you for doing that. It is my delight and my pleasure and just one of the great benefits of being a sensitive person in the world that we get to do our work, we get to explore the depths of our souls and then we get to bring what we're discovering to other people, and it's such an honor, it's such a pleasure. Thank you so much for letting me talk about it here on your lovely show.
April Snow: 56:44
Yes, thank you for being here. Thanks so much for joining me and Megan for today's conversation. The message I hope you're walking away with is that it's okay to set down the expectations of others, to honor your sensitive needs and, as you reconnect with yourself, allow time to experiment with what feels most supportive. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the Sensitive Stories podcast so you don't miss our upcoming conversations. Reviews and ratings are also helpful and appreciated For behind-the-scenes content and more HSP resources. You can sign up for my email list or follow Sensitive Strengths on Instagram, tiktok and YouTube. Check out the show notes or sensitivestoriescom for all the resources from today's episode. Thanks for listening.
